Mighty Ruler Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 43 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Then he should have resigned weeks ago. Or refused the job in the first place, like Gove reportedly has, unless he can conduct the negotiations himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 19 minutes ago, Retsdon said: To be honest, I don't believe that people knew what getting out of the EU entailed. In fact, to judge by what they were saying at the time, it's now quite apparent that most of Leave's leading lights were themselves no wiser. Either that or they were lying, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. As for May, I've had no time for her for years, not since she basically exiled me out of my own country, but nonetheless she is the Prime Minister and owes a duty of care to the country at large and consequently has to choose what is actually possible in practical terms rather than what might be desirable in theory. 1) Page 1, Rule 1 of EU law is that there is no access to the Single Market without compliance with its rules and regulations. 2) Britain, after 40 years of integration with the rest of the EU, NEEDS access to the Single Market (at least in the medium term) if the country is not to fall headlong off an economic cliff. 3) Consequently any withdrawal agreement will, of necessity, contain clauses which bind the UK to uphold the laws pertaining to the single market - at least in the medium term until other trading arrangements can be got up and running with third party countries and access given up. It makes no difference what people wanted or voted for. No amount of garment rending, or wailing, or gnashing of teeth will alter the economic reality of Britain's economic position or the legal reality of the Single Market. So better to just relax and make the best of what was always going to be a difficult and messy divorce. Can you explain what advantage the single market holds for Britain when we are approaching 100 billion pounds adverse? The single market does not benefit both sides, it only benefits the seller, the buyer is disadvantaged by the single market. Firstly because it loses the revenue but also it cannot protect its internal markets and industries. True it might be a bit of a shock initially but in the medium term coming out of the single market would give us a massive amount more control, instead of having to buy from within the EU. When we joined the Common Market we were nett positive on trade but we have had many things eroded, as have other countries. Steel is close to my heart given my connection to South Wales. Germany has constantly and blatantly massively subsidised its steel industry despite that being totally illegal. Port Talbot failed as a direct result because we could not stop underpriced German steel coming in, even though it was illegally produced. Hundreds of smallholdings in Cornwall were bankrupted by Spanish farms dumping their overproduction of cucumbers, tomatoes and lettuces. "everybody" knows they are overclaiming agricultural subsidies and the Spanish government was rubber stamping the false claims. The Cornish small farms couldn't claim a penny in subsidies because the British followed the letter of the law. Rather moronically as it turned out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShootingEgg Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 5 hours ago, Lloyd90 said: I think May is too stubborn to quit, either she’ll continue along or someone will have to start a vote of no confidence. On the other hand, she MIGHT know that this deal will get rejected on the vote and then go back to the EU and say “either fold to the conditions we want or it’s a no deal” ... maybe then they’d see how serious this is? 🤷♂️ EU have already said there is not going to be another round of negotiations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 1 hour ago, 12gauge82 said: Nonsense, it couldn't have been made clearer, either stay, or leave. 2 options, the country voted leave and she's done nothing of the sort no matter which way it's twisted. ^ This. It winds me right up when remainers say leavers didn't know what they were voting for. I knew exactly what I was voting for and i haven't seen anything that would make me change my opinion. In fact the way the EU has behaved since the referendum makes me despise them even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 11 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said: EU have already said there is not going to be another round of negotiations. Just watch if Germany sees it will have to pay WTO tariffs and France sees it will have to pay bits fair share Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRDS Posted November 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 21 minutes ago, Vince Green said: Can you explain what advantage the single market holds for Britain when we are approaching 100 billion pounds adverse? The single market does not benefit both sides, it only benefits the seller, the buyer is disadvantaged by the single market. Firstly because it loses the revenue but also it cannot protect its internal markets and industries. True it might be a bit of a shock initially but in the medium term coming out of the single market would give us a massive amount more control, instead of having to buy from within the EU. When we joined the Common Market we were nett positive on trade but we have had many things eroded, as have other countries. Steel is close to my heart given my connection to South Wales. Germany has constantly and blatantly massively subsidised its steel industry despite that being totally illegal. Port Talbot failed as a direct result because we could not stop underpriced German steel coming in, even though it was illegally produced. Hundreds of smallholdings in Cornwall were bankrupted by Spanish farms dumping their overproduction of cucumbers, tomatoes and lettuces. "everybody" knows they are overclaiming agricultural subsidies and the Spanish government was rubber stamping the false claims. The Cornish small farms couldn't claim a penny in subsidies because the British followed the letter of the law. Rather moronically as it turned out. Very well put which is why anyone with an ounce of courage voted Leave. We are being royally shafted by the EU on every front and we are expected to pay for the privilege, you couldn't make it up. Pay to run a huge trade deficit with them, pay for free health care for any EU citizen that wants it pay benefits to any EU citizen that wants it the list goes on and on.........….absolute madness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 1 minute ago, ShootingEgg said: EU have already said there is not going to be another round of negotiations. Then we walk and the EU are goosed. They have soooooooo much more to lose than us. We pay them £350 million a week in subs, we are £100 billion a year adverse in trade and we are hosting approx. 1.5 million of their citizens and families. Almost all are claiming benefits, tax credits, child benefit, getting free schooling and health care. Who is going to be the loser? not us. The EU cannot exist without us and our money. Somebody should have stood up two years ago and told them the gravy train is over. I would have liked to have remained but it wasn't there do be done, some things have to be seen for what they are. ITS OVER! Its finished, it was a great idea but it hasn't worked and we want out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 19 minutes ago, Vince Green said: Can you explain what advantage the single market holds for Britain when we are approaching 100 billion pounds adverse? The single market does not benefit both sides, it only benefits the seller, the buyer is disadvantaged by the single market. Firstly because it loses the revenue but also it cannot protect its internal markets and industries. In the single market both buyer and seller are satisfied that is the basis of trade. True it might be a bit of a shock initially but in the medium term coming out of the single market would give us a massive amount more control, instead of having to buy from within the EU. We do not have to buy within the EU. We can buy from where ever we get the best price. When we joined the Common Market we were nett positive on trade but we have had many things eroded, as have other countries. Steel is close to my heart given my connection to South Wales. Germany has constantly and blatantly massively subsidised its steel industry despite that being totally illegal. Port Talbot failed as a direct result because we could not stop underpriced German steel coming in, even though it was illegally produced. Where is the evidence? Hundreds of smallholdings in Cornwall were bankrupted by Spanish farms dumping their overproduction of cucumbers, tomatoes and lettuces. "everybody" knows they are overclaiming agricultural subsidies and the Spanish government was rubber stamping the false claims. Where is the evidence? The Cornish small farms couldn't claim a penny in subsidies because the British followed the letter of the law. Rather moronically as it turned out.? I have personally negotiated grant aid to UK companies under RSA tier 1 and 2 EU subsidy levels. There are many cases across the EU where subsidy has been challenged. In some cases repayment was required but rarely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Ruler Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Retsdon said: To be honest, I don't believe that people knew what getting out of the EU entailed. In fact, to judge by what they were saying at the time, it's now quite apparent that most of Leave's leading lights were themselves no wiser. Either that or they were lying, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. As for May, I've had no time for her for years, not since she basically exiled me out of my own country, but nonetheless she is the Prime Minister and owes a duty of care to the country at large and consequently has to choose what is actually possible in practical terms rather than what might be desirable in theory. 1) Page 1, Rule 1 of EU law is that there is no access to the Single Market without compliance with its rules and regulations. 2) Britain, after 40 years of integration with the rest of the EU, NEEDS access to the Single Market (at least in the medium term) if the country is not to fall headlong off an economic cliff. 3) Consequently any withdrawal agreement will, of necessity, contain clauses which bind the UK to uphold the laws pertaining to the single market - at least in the medium term until other trading arrangements can be got up and running with third party countries and access given up. It makes no difference what people wanted or voted for. No amount of garment rending, or wailing, or gnashing of teeth will alter the economic reality of Britain's economic position or the legal reality of the Single Market. So better to just relax and make the best of what was always going to be a difficult and messy divorce. What about all the rubbish young remainers got off social media, can’t believe some of the rubbish they fell for. There was a young lad on telly tonight who wanted another vote because he was worried about having to do more paperwork to go and work on a cruise ship. If that’s the sum of his problems ..................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 38 minutes ago, walshie said: ^ This. It winds me right up when remainers say leavers didn't know what they were voting for. I knew exactly what I was voting for and i haven't seen anything that would make me change my opinion. In fact the way the EU has behaved since the referendum makes me despise them even more. This. I knew exactly what I was voting for; the sheer arrogance of those who suggest we didn't is staggering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 21 minutes ago, Mighty Ruler said: What about all the rubbish young remainers got off social media, can’t believe some of the rubbish they fell for. There was a young lad on telly tonight who wanted another vote because he was worried about having to do more paperwork to go and work on a cruise ship. If that’s the sum of his problems ..................… I know a woman, a good friend of my OH and a very intelligent woman in many ways who voted remain because she liked to go to Spain for her holidays. She genuinely believed that if we left the holidays would come to an end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiny tim Posted November 15, 2018 Report Share Posted November 15, 2018 I know someone that voted remain because she thought the price of Prosecco might go up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 I know someone who said it would be a shame to lose the ‘cafe culture’. Why would we lose it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 Gove apparently declined the job now as she won’t let him change any of the proposed deal. What would be the point in bringing anyone else into the job now if they aren’t allowed to even change the proposal? Its like putting your name on someone else’s homework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markm Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 10 hours ago, Scully said: This. I knew exactly what I was voting for; the sheer arrogance of those who suggest we didn't is staggering. How arrogant this whole process has made people, is also staggering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Ruler Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 35 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said: Gove apparently declined the job now as she won’t let him change any of the proposed deal. What would be the point in bringing anyone else into the job now if they aren’t allowed to even change the proposal? Its like putting your name on someone else’s homework. Why doesn’t she just be honest and give the job to Ollie Robbins, after all he’s the one who’s been doing it for the past couple of years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr gen Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 This is all a terrible situation. My hope is that May steps down and we get some one in that has a back bone all this uncertainty is just adding fuel to the remoaners argument and dragging many people who voted out over. What we need to remember and also remind others is that the E.U. has systematically stripped us of our manufacturing by tempting the big companies over to the continent with massive grants. Made farming, fishing unprofitable by and imposing unjust rules that they themselves do not adhere to and claiming subsidies that they are not entitled. The E.U. has never been about making the weaker countries stronger. Just making the stronger countries weaker. lets bare all this in mind and get out a no deal would put us in a far better position than this ******** May is touting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Mr gen said: This is all a terrible situation. My hope is that May steps down Shes made it pretty clear thats not happening. She needs a push..hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Mr gen said: This is all a terrible situation. My hope is that May steps down and we get some one in that has a back bone all this uncertainty is just adding fuel to the remoaners argument and dragging many people who voted out over. What we need to remember and also remind others is that the E.U. has systematically stripped us of our manufacturing by tempting the big companies over to the continent with massive grants. Made farming, fishing unprofitable by and imposing unjust rules that they themselves do not adhere to and claiming subsidies that they are not entitled. The E.U. has never been about making the weaker countries stronger. Just making the stronger countries weaker. lets bare all this in mind and get out a no deal would put us in a far better position than this ******** May is touting. Thats much better put than I could have written. Very succinct. I'm thinking their entire plan is/was to debilitate the stroppy UK Edited November 16, 2018 by Dave-G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Ruler Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 Bad news for May, Gove’s agreed to stay. How long before the treacherous *** stabs her in the back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 2 hours ago, Mighty Ruler said: Why doesn’t she just be honest and give the job to Ollie Robbins, after all he’s the one who’s been doing it for the past couple of years. But he hasn't achieved what we want either! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mighty Ruler Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: But he hasn't achieved what we want either! Of course he hasn’t, but why go through the pretence of having Davis or Rabb as frontman? May and Robbins just do what they want anyway, excluding the rest of the cabinet, no way to run a government. If there’s one thing about this **** deal though, it should, as far as I can see prevent us becoming part of the US of E. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 I don't know that the official odds are, but my strong belief is that there won't be a deal. May's effort won't get through parliament and there's nothing more forthcoming from the EU. Already countries like Holland, France and Denmark are expressing misgivings, believing that Britain has been offered too much already. Everyone is fed up with this saga and just wants it over. Britain will crash out of the EU next March, and damn the consequences.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Retsdon said: I don't know that the official odds are, but my strong belief is that there won't be a deal. May's effort won't get through parliament and there's nothing more forthcoming from the EU. Already countries like Holland, France and Denmark are expressing misgivings, believing that Britain has been offered too much already. Everyone is fed up with this saga and just wants it over. Britain will crash out of the EU next March, and damn the consequences.. Let's hope so No deal is the best deal in my opinion, the EU don't want a deal, they just want our money but that is nothing new, that's all they ever wanted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12gauge82 Posted November 16, 2018 Report Share Posted November 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Newbie to this said: Let's hope so No deal is the best deal in my opinion, the EU don't want a deal, they just want our money but that is nothing new, that's all they ever wanted +1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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