Shooting incident in Plymouth

[armsid]

Just put INCELL into Google and read a topic by The Daily Dot (Canadian paper) and tells why they are dangerous and gives all the warning signs that give them away. It also tells of the toronto incident (april 18) when a driver drove down a pedestrian walkway and killed 9 injured 16 and then went on INCELL and it went virall

[yickdaz]

1 hour ago, clangerman said:

having seized my firearms i can confirm for a FACT the police carried out the most extensive checks possible gp friends family nobody was of limits so with no stone left unturned how did this chap get his firearms back? 

that particular issuing force are obviously inept and never turned over a pebble let alone a stone 

[mossy835]

as one MP once said, any one can turn at a flick of a switch,

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

as one MP once said, any one can turn at a flick of a switch,

It seems to be the case that this switch was just waiting ready to be flicked.

In most people, the switch is deeply buried/hidden/protected - and so doesn't get flicked.  Identifying those vulnerable to 'being flicked' in a relatively easy and reliable way is the challenge.

[mossy835]

do you think we can see, all guns on fac,ticket after this shooting.

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

do you think we can see, all guns on fac,ticket after this shooting.

Would it make any difference to control? I doubt it. Likely to see the introduction further disproportionate and pointless mental health processes.

[Rim Fire]

On 13/08/2021 at 13:24, shotmaker said:

 

As been said anybody can flip within the the 5 yr term But this person had his ticket taken off him and sent on an anger management course this is where the the follow up checks should have picked up the problems he was suffering with befor returning his sgc to him.  

Edited August 15, 2021 by Rim Fire

[JohnfromUK]

4 minutes ago, mossy835 said:

do you think we can see, all guns on fac,ticket after this shooting.

From what we see reported at the present time, it doesn't look like a weakness in the law/rules, but seems more like a failure to operate the existing law/rules/guidelines effectively.  That being the case - no change should be needed.

However - whether a change is needed to satisfy a political pressure from public outcry is a different matter.  For that I suspect a 'higher profile change' like banning something might be better at getting the right headlines for the politicians.

[12gauge82]

30 minutes ago, Rim Fire said:

As been said anybody can flip within the the 5 yr term But this person had his ticket taken off him and sent on an anger management course this is where the the follow up checks should have picked up the problems he was suffering with befor returning his sgc to him.  

The problem there is our discrimination laws wouldn't allow it. How many people on here have suffered a bought of depression, stress, anxiety or other mental health issues. If they took someones license indefinitely for that, there'd be cries of discrimination and over zealous police infringing peoples rights. I think the police really are between a rock and a hard place with being blamed when someone snaps. I know what I'd do if I was a chief constable and the police get the blame because some has snapped, I'd make it as hard as possible for anyone to get a ticket at all and call for all civilian ownership to be banned. It'd be the easiest way to cover my *** and stop anything like that happening again. 

[TK421]

As others have said it’s a very sad thing that’s happened and my thoughts go to all those families affected by this bloke (I’m trying to be PC here).

having just had my renewal, other than the daft wait times for GP Letters etc and moaning about COVID back logs and costs, it was a very simple process indeed. Zero contact with anyone in the real, and I think for someone of a certain mind open to exploit.

I genuinely think there is a disconnect between the FEO side and the medical GP side and neither side seem to care as long as the box is ticked and letter stamped and received. It took 8 weeks to get my paid for GP letter, not because it was an extensive look into my history but because it wasn’t a priority and it sat on a desk getting passed around until somebody signed it off, I know this because I called in every week after 4 weeks had passed, each time I was given a the name of a different person that was handling until it was signed off by a staff member Id never even met. For the record I’ve been a good lad, no offences and of sound mind with no medical conditions, although my back reaching an age now where I’m beginning to sound like my old fella, with the odd moan here and there when sitting and standing. 😂

Are GP letters checked by the FEO? What’s to stop anyone reusing the last one they had just by changing the date etc?

for the record I’m not looking or asking for change, but we do pay an amount to whomever we have to to get the license or renewal, that amount should cover what’s needed to be done in order for the applicant to be suitably assessed and confirmed to be safe to own a firearms. I agree with others that in this instance the system failed, but not because the system is entirely floored, it’s normally that the people involved have failed.

There is without doubt a better way to do the licensing where there should be better continuity and information flowing between these professionals.

 

 

[hodge911]

The mayor of Plymouth was on TV asking Patel to look into All aspects licensing "to prevent another community suffering like his" ..., So looks like we MAY be going to be scapegoats for the actions of 1 person with mental problems ... 

It still boils my pee that they don't make a massive deal out of all the illegally owned firearms involved in shootings all the media come out with is X amount of people were shot / injured in a drug , or drive by or gang realated shooting and that's it .

Not days and days of bias reporting that " the gunman held a licence” .

No body should die in acts like this except the perpetrator but unfortunately they do regardless of whether the person who pulls the trigger holds a licence but yet the media love to point out at every opertunity that a licence was held .

So as an outcome the law abiding people  who hold licences and have jumped through every hoop they have to keep them will suffer as a result .

I have held as I suspect a LOT OF US have my tickets for over 30years . 

[mossy835]

they can do all they want with the gun laws, make it as hard as they like, but it will happen again at some time.this was not our fault,its down to the police,

[kory1986]

48 minutes ago, hodge911 said:

The mayor of Plymouth was on TV asking Patel to look into All aspects licensing "to prevent another community suffering like his" ..., So looks like we MAY be going to be scapegoats for the actions of 1 person with mental problems ... 

It still boils my pee that they don't make a massive deal out of all the illegally owned firearms involved in shootings all the media come out with is X amount of people were shot / injured in a drug , or drive by or gang realated shooting and that's it .

Not days and days of bias reporting that " the gunman held a licence” .

No body should die in acts like this except the perpetrator but unfortunately they do regardless of whether the person who pulls the trigger holds a licence but yet the media love to point out at every opertunity that a licence was held .

So as an outcome the law abiding people  who hold licences and have jumped through every hoop they have to keep them will suffer as a result .

I have held as I suspect a LOT OF US have my tickets for over 30years . 

It be us that take the brunt off this , not the police for messing up and returning the firearms not the GP that said he was fine to handle a firearm no doubt restrictions will get worse but like most other shooting in this Country in the past Hungerford , Dunblane  where the police had pervious warning something wasn't right. The blame will be shifted off them and on to us and more bans will probably get put into place which will change nothing because the reason why this shooting happen was because of police incompetence and returning the guys shotgun.  

[Rob85]

14 hours ago, Shadowchaser said:

Interesting.  Has that been a reasonable system?  How do regular shotgun users (those who just want a shotgun for clays, vermin etc) find it? 

I think the chap on the other forum is just one of those who would be horrified if someone turned up with a semi auto at a game shoot.

One of the points raised was that you don't need a third shot, an O/U will do the job. 

The great thing about gas operated semi autos (not pumps) is the reduction in felt recoil.  If they wanted 3 shots and above to move to section 1, then I hope they'd allow semis to continue on section 2 but limited to two shells. 

To be honest I think like after Cumbria, not much if anything will change.   

It doesn't matter what kind of firearm you want over here, the system is exactly the same. You state what you want and why and they will assess the ground you intend to shoot it on. Whether this is the FEO looking up an o/s map or doing a drive past or the ground or speak to the landowner is up to them.

Evens the playing field too in a way, whether you want a .177 airgun to bunny bash or a .308 to take a sika deer, everyone is supposed to be treated the same.

One thing the majority in the mainland would like is we do not have a pro forma thing to take to the docs, on our application we are just asked about mental health issues and give them permission to speak to our doc, if we don't give permission the licence will automatically be refused. If they do seek out the gp it will just be a casual email and likely the doc will ask to speak to you before replying.

 I don't know of anybody who has been charged for that service yet.

[mossy835]

13 minutes ago, kory1986 said:

It be us that take the brunt off this , not the police for messing up and returning the firearms not the GP that said he was fine to handle a firearm no doubt restrictions will get worse but like most other shooting in this Country in the past Hungerford , Dunblane  where the police had pervious warning something wasn't right. The blame will be shifted off them and on to us and more bans will probably get put into place which will change nothing because the reason why this shooting happen was because of police incompetence and returning the guys shotgun.  

 

 

this

[MARSH GUN]

Form what has filtered out so far, and before any government enquiry conclusions.

 It seemed the Police acted in the right way, they asked Davison to go on an anger management course. And In due course returned his certificate. just the same as any of us would expect if we had complications with our Gun licences, with any of the Police forces in the country.

  The sad  fact Davison went off the rails is as far as practical beyond any police control.

  What new laws will be implemented to try and prevent any further /similar crimes is  futile.  Killers are going to find a way, no matter what. We might be better employed as a nation, trying to look at what kind of world we live in, that drives a young man to carry out such a crime.

 Futile ? Probably, but no more futile than trying to prevent further such crimes with gun laws.

[Oak]

My heart goes to all effected in this horrific shooting.   The problem is that the killer was holding a legal firearm his certificate was only re issued a few weeks ago ?   My thoughts are that the killer will have killed by other means if he had not been a holder of a legal firearm  and it is the welfare and legal system that has failed in not helping him he was clearly self radicalised 

[Ricko]

My deepest sympathies to all the families affected by this, they are the true victims in all of this.

 

[ordnance]

4 hours ago, mossy835 said:

do you think we can see, all guns on fac,ticket after this shooting.

Shotguns are already FAC only, in this part of the UK. It could be extended to the rest of the UK, politicians will want to look like they are doing something, not that it will make any difference. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

 It seemed the Police acted in the right way, they asked Davison to go on an anger management course. And In due course returned his certificate. just the same as any of us would expect if we had complications with our Gun licences, with any of the Police forces in the country.

Sorry - I have to draw a line in the sand. 

He assaulted someone - that should have been enough to take his licence.

"they asked him to go on an anger management course". Why? So that he could control his anger and not assault another person? Or was it purely to get back his SGC. 

If that is the case, I am truly appalled. I would never have expected him to get the SGC back and I would have expected an in depth assessment to take place before it was ever considered. Given that it is alleged that the alarm was raised with the NHS and the police, just what were they thinking?

Based on the current known facts, much as I support the Police, I cannot subscribe to the view that they acted in the right way. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by Gordon R

[HantsRob]

18 hours ago, clangerman said:

having seized my firearms i can confirm for a FACT the police carried out the most extensive checks possible gp friends family nobody was of limits so with no stone left unturned how did this chap get his firearms back? 

The only FACT is that you cannot fairly compare your situation to someone else, even if it was the same county force.

[steve s×s]

40 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Sorry - I have to draw a line in the sand. 

He assaulted someone - that should have been enough to take his licence.

"they asked him to go on an anger maangement course". Why? So that he could control his anger and not assault another person? Or was it purely to get back his SGC. 

If that is the case, I am truly appalled. I would never have expected him to get the SGC back and I would have expected an in depth assessment to take place before it was ever considered. Given that it is alleged that the alarm was raised with the NHS and the police, just what were they thinking?

Based on the current known facts, much as I support the Police, I cannot subscribe to the view that they acted in the right way. 

This, ^ we are all constantly reminded, Get in trouble (afray, drink, drugs, abuse) and you lose your licence or maybe not, which idiot thought an anger management course would make or ever will make someone change their mental outlook, same goes for speed awareness 

[HantsRob]

I've tried to reply to this thread a few times. I've deleted each time.

My opinion is simply that all these posts will be read by news groups, police, and other authorities. For that reason I have decided to not post anything except I hope there is a pragmatic answer from all the different angles, from medical reporting and frequency through to not punishing the many for what we can all agree was a troubled young man, that does NOT represent the licenced many. 

Very much like when a Police officer is caught doing something wrong, it shouldn't reflect as the rest of the force being bad.

 

Simply: he was *NOT* 'one of us'. 

[12gauge82]

26 minutes ago, HantsRob said:

I've tried to reply to this thread a few times. I've deleted each time.

My opinion is simply that all these posts will be read by news groups, police, and other authorities. For that reason I have decided to not post anything except I hope there is a pragmatic answer from all the different angles, from medical reporting and frequency through to not punishing the many for what we can all agree was a troubled young man, that does NOT represent the licenced many. 

Very much like when a Police officer is caught doing something wrong, it shouldn't reflect as the rest of the force being bad.

 

Simply: he was *NOT* 'one of us'. 

Good post and I fully agree. I'd say the shooting community is one of the most law abiding groups of people in the county. 

The point I've tried to make on this thread is I don't think blaming any group is particularly helpful. 

Whatever measures are put in place, someone could always slip the net and in reality, unless we're going to ban civilian ownership of firearms altogether, I don't think changing the existing rules will make much difference in the real world. 

[ordnance]

They will be trying to pass the blamed around, but the only person to blame is the shooter IMO. 

49 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Good post and I fully agree. I'd say the shooting community is one of the most law abiding groups of people in the county. 

The point I've tried to make on this thread is I don't think blaming any group is particularly helpful. 

Whatever measures are put in place, someone could always slip the net and in reality, unless we're going to ban civilian ownership of firearms altogether, I don't think changing the existing rules will make much difference in the real world. 

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