Energy Bills

[Jim Neal]

16 hours ago, Blackpowder said:

Heard earlier in the radio news that people earning £45000 a year are going to need assistance in paying their domestic fuel bills.   What chance has anyone dependant upon state pension?  Looks like either heat or eat.

Blackpowder

What is the source of this figure and statement?

Taking an "average" household as an example, you're looking at a worst case scenario of around £4k annually for a typical family home's energy bills once the prices go up.

Presuming the £45k is gross, tax allowance is I think around the £13k mark so you'd be taxed at 20% on £32k of it, so take another £6400 away bringing you down to £34,600.  I can't decipher the HMRC gobbledegook to work out what % NI is payable for a salary of £45k but I'll go with 9% as an example, so take off another £4k or so, leaving £30k

Divide that by 12 and you've got £2,400 a month to pay for everything else.  That's a decent bit of pocket money.  With that much spare change, who the hell has got the nerve to claim poverty and demand help with paying their gas bill?  Many of us survive on a lot less without assistance.

 

[JohnfromUK]

4 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

Divide that by 12 and you've got £2,400 a month to pay for everything else.  That's a decent bit of pocket money.  With that much spare change, who the hell has got the nerve to claim poverty and demand help with paying their gas bill?  Many of us survive on a lot less without assistance.

Can't disagree with that myself .......... but lots will.  As my post above (about half way down page 1) people tend to take on expenditure that matches their income.  So someone on £2400 a month may have 'fixed' expenditures like mortgage, pension, car lease/contract/loan, appliances on HP, subscriptions to gyms, golf clubs, streaming, phones, internet, clays clubs, then they want a couple of holidays, somewhere hot with a beach in summer, skiing in winter, a few weekends away etc.  After that there is some left each month that may get spent on food, clothes, evenings out, a bottle here and there .......... and at the end of the month, it is all gone.

Now many are going to have to pay an extra maybe £250 - 300 on energy a month, maybe an extra £50 on food, mortgage might go up maybe £100 - and we all know most things are going up - so maybe £500 a month extra.

So either they have to find more income, dip into savings they may (or may not) have, or CUT BACK on some discretionary spending.  Maybe no holiday, less heating in the home, keep the car longer.  Having to take such steps will be seen by many as 'struggling'.

The bottom line is that many people have enjoyed a pretty good lifestyle with steadily increasing standards of living.  50 years ago -

• relatively few people had central heating - now almost everyone has it
• Many didn't have cars - now many families have tow or 3 cars
• Foreign holidays were a luxury, now many people see them as essential to their 'well being'
• Many houses didn't have a phone, the TV was probably one room - and often rented - now they are numerous

It is easy to forget that people now have a standard of living that would have been considered really quite high and the preserve of 'the rich' 50 years ago.

Now it seems likely there will need to be a bit of a 'step back' for many and live within means as interest rates rise.  It will mean cutbacks for most people, and those who really were 'hard up' are going to need help, which will push up taxes, borrowing.  Its not just UK either, though the UK may feel it more sharply as we have a climate that needs some heat and a low productivity, high benefits dependency system.  Why that is is another whole huge topic .......... but for starters, think ageing population and low manufacturing base.

[ShootingEgg]

5 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

Divide that by 12 and you've got £2,400

So for me taken less than the above home.

£500 childcare a month ( my little one does two days a week in nursery)

Mortgage is £830 pcm

So on those figures if I was on 2400 take home I'd have 1100, they say energy could get to £400-500 a month, so that will leave £600 to feed myself and child and dogs. I'm not disagreeing with you but once you start to break it down you start to see where things get scary for lower income families.

My partner works 3 days a week so the above is only if I was single parent or a couple on a combined wage. Take into account some people have cars on monthly payment, sky, lie a beer etc. Things will get tough and hard decisions to be made, but not all will want to make them.

[Jaymo]

6 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

What is the source of this figure and statement?

Taking an "average" household as an example, you're looking at a worst case scenario of around £4k annually for a typical family home's energy bills once the prices go up.

Presuming the £45k is gross, tax allowance is I think around the £13k mark so you'd be taxed at 20% on £32k of it, so take another £6400 away bringing you down to £34,600.  I can't decipher the HMRC gobbledegook to work out what % NI is payable for a salary of £45k but I'll go with 9% as an example, so take off another £4k or so, leaving £30k

Divide that by 12 and you've got £2,400 a month to pay for everything else.  That's a decent bit of pocket money.  With that much spare change, who the hell has got the nerve to claim poverty and demand help with paying their gas bill?  Many of us survive on a lot less without assistance.

 

 

[scouser]

I know it’s a silly question, but all these extra BILLIONS that where paying,where’s it going.???

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, scouser said:

I know it’s a silly question, but all these extra BILLIONS that where paying,where’s it going.???

Back to all of us as an energy rebate, from a windfall tax on energy companies super profits. Mostly. 

[Wilts#Dave]

19 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

The issue here is what you are used to.  Most people on low to 'moderate' salaries/pay (and I'm mainly thinking of those on sub 50K) tend to enjoy a lifestyle that uses most of their income.  They have a decent house usually on a mortgage, probably 2 but almost certainly 1 car, often on lease/contract/hp, usually nicely furnished and decorated house, well equipped with latest appliances and gizmos, couple of significant holidays a year, plus weekends away, subscription services, club memberships, eat out etc.

By the time tax, NI, pension contribution, utility bills, council tax, mortgage, loans/leases are paid, a bit put aside for the next holiday, there is very little left.  To sum up, a nice income coming in, and a lot going out.  Now, several of the outgoings (mortgage, energy mainly) are going to go up - and up a LOT.  Either there will be a deficit, or something will have to be cut back.

It applies at all levels, but the very wealthy have plenty of things on which they can relatively easily cut back, and the least wealthy are going to find it hard, but the state will help.  Those in the middle are going to find it hard, and the state won't help (much).

We are in a 'wartime' scenario, even if we ourselves are not at war, the way life is 'globalised' now means that it will be felt way beyond the actual theatres of engagement.

We also live on a planet where everything (food, energy, housing, space) is being placed under pressure by ever increasing populations wanting ever higher living standards - and all exacerbated by probable "climate change" which no one really knows quite what to expect in the future climate and local weather wise.  Inflation (which is largely global on the rise, but to different degrees as local demand and supply issues are players) is also likely to get worse everywhere.

I'm afraid we (or at least many of us) are going to have to get used to a rather more spartan lifestyle.

Spot on. I’m in the middle bracket so to  speak, earn a reasonable wage but with a young family to provide for and a reasonable size mortage it’s not ‘easy’ and unlikely I’ll get any help whatsoever (yet I make considerable contributions towards the help offered to others).
It’s easy to not put yourself in others shoes but in reality with the exception of people earning really good money everyone is going to have their own struggle the way things are heading. Very sad. 

[Mungler]

Anyone see the Top Gear / Grand Tour episode where they went to Detroit? In its heyday it was the most expensive town to live in on the planet because of the prosperity the motoring industry brought to the area. Scroll on to now and it’s a basket case - gone, done and over.

Now, think of the Mongols, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Greeks and even the Spanish at their peak with plundered South American gold. All nothing and nowhere countries and economies.

Our hey day was under the British Empire and the Commonwealth and it’s been down hill ever since.  And we have done it to ourselves - it happens - once basic needs are met it’s then all down hill.

I reckon for my life time, things will never be as good as say 2015. Do I see things getting back to as good as they were in 2015 - no, not in my lifetime.

[Wilts#Dave]

13 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Anyone see the Top Gear / Grand Tour episode where they went to Detroit? In its heyday it was the most expensive town to live in on the planet because of the prosperity the motoring industry brought to the area. Scroll on to now and it’s a basket case - gone, done and over.

Now, think of the Mongols, the Egyptians, the Romans, the Greeks and even the Spanish at their peak with plundered South American gold. All nothing and nowhere countries and economies.

Our hey day was under the British Empire and the Commonwealth and it’s been down hill ever since.  And we have done it to ourselves - it happens - once basic needs are met it’s then all down hill.

I reckon for my life time, things will never be as good as say 2015. Do I see things getting back to as good as they were in 2015 - no, not in my lifetime.

It’s a shame that seems to be the case, you’d think with the wealth of knowledge / advances in technology this wouldn’t happen but it seems to be a never ending cycle of peaks and troughs. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

8 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

What is the source of this figure and statement?

Taking an "average" household as an example, you're looking at a worst case scenario of around £4k annually for a typical family home's energy bills once the prices go up.

Presuming the £45k is gross, tax allowance is I think around the £13k mark so you'd be taxed at 20% on £32k of it, so take another £6400 away bringing you down to £34,600.  I can't decipher the HMRC gobbledegook to work out what % NI is payable for a salary of £45k but I'll go with 9% as an example, so take off another £4k or so, leaving £30k

Divide that by 12 and you've got £2,400 a month to pay for everything else.  That's a decent bit of pocket money.  With that much spare change, who the hell has got the nerve to claim poverty and demand help with paying their gas bill?  Many of us survive on a lot less without assistance.

 

Hello, it's been highlighted by a government minister ? We must not forget those earning £45,00 will need help ? What ever next, MP s going to food banks, ? 

[Scully]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Can't disagree with that myself .......... but lots will.  As my post above (about half way down page 1) people tend to take on expenditure that matches their income.  So someone on £2400 a month may have 'fixed' expenditures like mortgage, pension, car lease/contract/loan, appliances on HP, subscriptions to gyms, golf clubs, streaming, phones, internet, clays clubs, then they want a couple of holidays, somewhere hot with a beach in summer, skiing in winter, a few weekends away etc.  After that there is some left each month that may get spent on food, clothes, evenings out, a bottle here and there .......... and at the end of the month, it is all gone.

Now many are going to have to pay an extra maybe £250 - 300 on energy a month, maybe an extra £50 on food, mortgage might go up maybe £100 - and we all know most things are going up - so maybe £500 a month extra.

So either they have to find more income, dip into savings they may (or may not) have, or CUT BACK on some discretionary spending.  Maybe no holiday, less heating in the home, keep the car longer.  Having to take such steps will be seen by many as 'struggling'.

The bottom line is that many people have enjoyed a pretty good lifestyle with steadily increasing standards of living.  50 years ago -

• relatively few people had central heating - now almost everyone has it
• Many didn't have cars - now many families have tow or 3 cars
• Foreign holidays were a luxury, now many people see them as essential to their 'well being'
• Many houses didn't have a phone, the TV was probably one room - and often rented - now they are numerous

It is easy to forget that people now have a standard of living that would have been considered really quite high and the preserve of 'the rich' 50 years ago.

Now it seems likely there will need to be a bit of a 'step back' for many and live within means as interest rates rise.  It will mean cutbacks for most people, and those who really were 'hard up' are going to need help, which will push up taxes, borrowing.  Its not just UK either, though the UK may feel it more sharply as we have a climate that needs some heat and a low productivity, high benefits dependency system.  Why that is is another whole huge topic .......... but for starters, think ageing population and low manufacturing base.

I think that sums it up quite accurately in my opinion.
When I look back at how I grew up; one tv ( rented ) one holiday per year in this country, one car, compared to how many families expect to live today as a minimum essential standard…..a tv in every room, each with mobile phone etc etc, and you can see how the monthly bills stack up.
There is no doubt that living today is grossly more expensive than when I grew up in the 60’s and 70’s, but I heard a woman complaining the other day about the power her tumble drier uses! 🤷‍♂️

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, oldypigeonpopper said:

What ever next, MP s going to food banks, ?

They already have the "Parliamentary equivalent" in the form of heavily subsidised restaurants and bars in the Houses of Parliament.  Realistically, many will have to trim their spending as energy (mine was £106 a month last year and is up for renewal May 2023, when I expect it to jump to somewhere north of £500 a month) will form a much bigger slice of everyone's budget.  Most people/families will need to both cut energy usage (turn down the heating and wear warmer clothes) and cut back on 'non essentials' in order to meet the bills for the ones rising quickly (which I would expect to be mainly energy and mortgage repayments).  Those who have genuinely nothing left they can cut will need further aid from the State.  It's going to be tough as the vast majority of households are going to have some budget trimming and cut backs and savings to make, and won't want their taxes subsidising others foreign holidays, beer, cigarettes, premium TV subscriptions etc. nor are they going to want to see large expenditure ion housing 'asylum seekers' who are not really seeking asylum or refuge, but seeking a share of our welfare state.

[Blackpowder]

8 hours ago, Jim Neal said:

What is the source of this figure and statement?

Taking an "average" household as an example, you're looking at a worst case scenario of around £4k annually for a typical family home's energy bills once the prices go up.

Presuming the £45k is gross, tax allowance is I think around the £13k mark so you'd be taxed at 20% on £32k of it, so take another £6400 away bringing you down to £34,600.  I can't decipher the HMRC gobbledegook to work out what % NI is payable for a salary of £45k but I'll go with 9% as an example, so take off another £4k or so, leaving £30k

Divide that by 12 and you've got £2,400 a month to pay for everything else.  That's a decent bit of pocket money.  With that much spare change, who the hell has got the nerve to claim poverty and demand help with paying their gas bill?  Many of us survive on a lot less without assistance.

 

It was on radio news Jim

Blackpowder

[Wilts#Dave]

2 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

So for me taken less than the above home.

£500 childcare a month ( my little one does two days a week in nursery)

Mortgage is £830 pcm

So on those figures if I was on 2400 take home I'd have 1100, they say energy could get to £400-500 a month, so that will leave £600 to feed myself and child and dogs. I'm not disagreeing with you but once you start to break it down you start to see where things get scary for lower income families.

My partner works 3 days a week so the above is only if I was single parent or a couple on a combined wage. Take into account some people have cars on monthly payment, sky, lie a beer etc. Things will get tough and hard decisions to be made, but not all will want to make them.

There’s other regular bills to take into account, council tax for me is £225/month. Broadband / water is essential as is car insurance. £2,400 a month doesn’t mean people are left with thousands of spare money because others survive on earning 25k for example. 
It’s never been unusual that people who earn more or less than each other have outgoings to suit…..45k a year really isn’t a lot depending on your circumstances, stage of life/family dependants etc etc. Will be tough for lots more folk than the ‘low’ income households as you say. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

25 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

They already have the "Parliamentary equivalent" in the form of heavily subsidised restaurants and bars in the Houses of Parliament.  Realistically, many will have to trim their spending as energy (mine was £106 a month last year and is up for renewal May 2023, when I expect it to jump to somewhere north of £500 a month) will form a much bigger slice of everyone's budget.  Most people/families will need to both cut energy usage (turn down the heating and wear warmer clothes) and cut back on 'non essentials' in order to meet the bills for the ones rising quickly (which I would expect to be mainly energy and mortgage repayments).  Those who have genuinely nothing left they can cut will need further aid from the State.  It's going to be tough as the vast majority of households are going to have some budget trimming and cut backs and savings to make, and won't want their taxes subsidising others foreign holidays, beer, cigarettes, premium TV subscriptions etc. nor are they going to want to see large expenditure ion housing 'asylum seekers' who are not really seeking asylum or refuge, but seeking a share of our welfare state.

Good post John 👍

[Vince Green]

It will not only be this country that suffers.

Strange when you think we are living on top of a thousand years worth of coal

Nobody has tried to suggest that we could have built clean coal fired power stations

 OK those 50s era dinosaurs were pretty disgusting with their chimneys belching out all that smoke. But that was then

[Weihrauch17]

12 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Labours answer would be??????

Where did I mention labour, all 650 are a total waste of space.  It is obvious none of them have the slightest clue.   We are sat on hundreds of years worth of our own energy yet we are in an energy crisis, that alone tells you all you need to know about how effective Politicians are.  It is like having millions in the bank but having an empty fridge and starving.  The same Politicians who want to pay Farmers not to produce food in a food supply and cost of living crisis, totally and utterly incompetent.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[Rem260]

The unions are loving this. They are pushing for substantial pay increases which will cause even more inflation. They even want minimum wage to increase by 50%. Let's see how we'll that would affect small businesses. The unions only survive by creating social devision.

[Vince Green]

I predict that Germany will roll over and buy Russian gas again at the first sign of frost.

They are not going to suffer the domestic fallout that would bankrupt thousands of German businesses and individuals. 

And France will be right behind them.

And Putin knows it

[Newbie to this]

17 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Scum living of the tax payer!!!!

You are correct, I shouldn't have used the word scum, wasters may have been better. Also I shouldn't have generalised all civil servants into one size fits all category, I'm certain there are some good ones, I've yet to meet one yet (I've met quite a few, although on a grand scale it's very low percentage wise), but I'm sure they do exist. I should make it clear my comments are about civil servants in Westminster, in reponce to a comment.

 

17 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Sounds a bit general and what about this? ‘Person’ enters the service from school and gets promoted along the way, they excel at their job - maybe they are head of Social services providing some fantastic support to those that need it. For this they are paid say, £100k and yet you think they are scum? 

I've addressed my mistake above about one size fits all, but I can only go by my experience of civil servants, and the ones I've met are all useless wasters, and not worth the burden on the tax payer.

[ShootingEgg]

4 hours ago, Wilts#Dave said:

There’s other regular bills to take into account, council tax for me is £225/month. Broadband / water is essential as is car insurance. £2,400 a month doesn’t mean people are left with thousands of spare money because others survive on earning 25k for example. 
It’s never been unusual that people who earn more or less than each other have outgoings to suit…..45k a year really isn’t a lot depending on your circumstances, stage of life/family dependants etc etc. Will be tough for lots more folk than the ‘low’ income households as you say. 

You are not wrong 

[oowee]

5 hours ago, Vince Green said:

I predict that Germany will roll over and buy Russian gas again at the first sign of frost.

They are not going to suffer the domestic fallout that would bankrupt thousands of German businesses and individuals. 

And France will be right behind them.

And Putin knows it

Reserves are up they don't need to. 

[ditchman]

im in a 2 bed bungalow now...i have laid large rugs ontop of the carpet....i have turned off all the rads 'cept the sitting room and half on in the bathroom....the stat is set to kick in at 21 degs..although it is turned off at the moment....i use the washing machine once / week now....no baths anymore just a shower now twice.week....

rarely use the oven ...use my slow cooker alot and the bloody microwave

i never have more than 2 lights on in the house (and they are the energy saving bulbs christ they are expensive)

average cost over the last 3 mths

• electric £1.62/day
• gas        £2.00/day

£108/mth.......and i have seen that really go up..........god knows what it will be like during a hard winter......

Edited August 28, 2022 by ditchman

[Stonepark]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

Reserves are up they don't need to. 

Reserves are at 75%.

However, 100% reserves are only equivalent to 20% of total yearly demand.

Use during the winter reflects almost 75% of yearly demand.

Hence reserves only reflect about 20% of demand over winter.....

Unless they get Russian gas, they (and by market links) everyone in Europe is ******¡

[Dave-G]

I'm not looking forwards to the next year or two, we have my basic state pension and OH's reduced state pension coming in. luckily no mortgage payments to meet though.

Any time I try to get her indoors to cut down on how many saucepans are on with the oven its 'here we go again' time. If I try to get her to turn the gas off about a minute before the chips are done she throws a hissy, same with the kettle, she has to keep them on till the very end. I'm mansplaining when I point out the cooking oil has enough heat for another minute when nearly done and she won't accept modern kettles with hotplate type bases will keep on heating for ten seconds or so if switched off just as it comes to the boil. The look on her face...