Brexit - merged threads

[Yellow Bear]

Just now, Gordon R said:

There will be more room at the trough for them after we go.

But a lot less in it!!

[panoma1]

In no way defending our politicians and negotiators, but the EU are not negotiating, they are encouraging offers!

Deal making starts with an offer, which is then accepted or rejected, if rejected, this usually results in a counter offer and so on!........if the other party won't/don't make a counter offer what do you do? Lower your demands still further? .........Or walk away!

When involved in negotiations you start at the top with your demands! You can alway reduce those demands..........but never increase them!............from what I see our politicians/negotiators started near the bottom....and even that did not result in a counter offer/proposition!!............If the EU won't negotiate, they don't want a deal!

[Rewulf]

28 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Of course the onus is on us! And the EU didn't cause any problems -we're the ones leaving. And yes, the EU has constantly  told us is that it is up to us propose what kind of political and economic relationship we want with it once we leave. How would they know what we might want when we don't even seem to know ourselves? They've also constantly told us that it is not possible for the EU to either compromise the integrity of the single market, or the indivisiblity of  'the' four freedoms of movement' of goods, services, capital and labour,  because these are the bedrock upon which the whole EU is founded. So based what they've always told us,  it was always a given that Barnier would reject May's Chequers proposals. He could do nothing else - he had choice,.

But of course, May knew that all along. The whole White Paper exercise was just a ploy to try and shift the blame for the upcoming consequences of a catastrophic no-deal Brexit onto the EU. In other words this government plays petty political pass the parcel games when it should be negotiating properly on the basis of what is and isn't realistically possible.

You can't blame the EU for the pitiful quality of UK politicians.

 

 

19 minutes ago, oowee said:

Spot on. You can only blame the political games that have gone on to propose such a stupid opaque referendum in the first place. Neither side was clear what the consequences of the vote would mean. The whole mess we are in can only be laid at the door of Cameron. God help us if it's no deal and we have to fight our way to a sensible arrangement. It will cost us years of economic growth at the very least.

Oh I see now, dont know how I could of missed it !

Once you join the EU , you CANT get out, youre not allowed to leave , or you face economic ruin.
Mafia style.

But still we voted to go, even though no one knew how it would pan out.

Retsdon, listen to yourself           "it is not possible for the EU to either compromise the integrity of the single market, or the indivisiblity of  'the' four freedoms of movement' of goods, services, capital and labour," 
So you cant have any of those things outside the EU ? Really ?

Oowee    "such a stupid opaque referendum in the first place. Neither side was clear what the consequences of the vote would mean."
Here we go again, we didnt know what it meant, I knew what it meant, it was clear , our pro EU government told us using fear tactics, the terrifying future we would inherit in the post EU wasteland.
And guess what , WE STILL VOTED TO LEAVE ?

[Retsdon]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

So you cant have any of those things outside the EU ? Really ?

Sure. The EEA.

[walshie]

28 minutes ago, oowee said:

The whole mess we are in can only be laid at the door of Cameron. 

Yep, all brought about by an arrogant remainer and his rose tinted specs.

[JohnfromUK]

20 minutes ago, oowee said:

I always had time for Cameron but his credibility went down the pan with his handling of this.

Cameron had a problem; to win the 2015 election he was faced with several problems.

• Brown had been replaced with Milliband for Labour, and so there was 'new blood' at the top of the Labour party - and new blood often gets some votes.
• The previous coalition administration he had led had not achieved much  - coalitions often don't, and he was in a 'fixed term' parliament, so couldn't choose his moment.
• UKIP were doing well and probably taking more from the Tories than from Labour
• There was a real possibility of a Milliband/Clegg/SNP coalition unless he got a fair majority - and that would have been a disaster

So he coaxed some UKIP votes back by promising a referendum.  There is little doubt he thought he could win the referendum.

When he did win the General Election, fair play, he held the promised referendum - after negotiating with the EU.  Unfortunately, the EU gave him nothing.  They thought he would win, and with hindsight he was scared stiff of loosing - hence the 'scare tactics' that backfired.  I think he was (probably naively)  thinking the EU would give him some slack and help him win.

HAD he come back from the EU with something sensible on immigration/free movement, and European Court jurisdiction, he might have won, but all he came back with was something that looked like 'we don't really care anyway' from the EU. 

It is the EU's pure arrogance as much as Cameron's undoubted mistakes that nailed him.

 

Edited July 27, 2018 by JohnfromUK

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

HAD he come back from the EU with something sensible on immigration/free movement, and European Court jurisdiction, he might have won, but all he came back with was something that looked like 'we don't really care anyway' from the EU. 

It is the EU's pure arrogance as much as Cameron's undoubted mistakes that nailed him.

 

Without a doubt, Ive come to expect nothing more from them.
Their continued arrogance is going to be their undoing.

Theyve messed up, and we are leaving in some shape or form, they seem to think the damage will all be on our side, but the numbers dont support this.
Still they dont compromise, and Europe is watching.
Its going to be a messy end for them.

[Retsdon]

Barnier - "The UK wants to take back control of its money, law, and borders. We will respect that. But the EU also wants to keep control of its money, law, and borders. The UK should respect that. So, we share an objective in that regard'.

What's the argument about?

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

Barnier - "The UK wants to take back control of its money, law, and borders

"And we might let them one day, if they give us £50 billion , Northern Ireland, and still let our courts have the final say"

11 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

 

12 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

We will respect that

We actually wont respect that at all, youve ruined our plans...for the moment..

12 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

 But the EU also wants to keep control of its money, law, and borders. 

 

What he means is Europes money, law and borders, the EU owns nothing in reality, for the moment ....

 

14 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

The UK should respect that. So, we share an objective in that regard'.

 

" We will share nothing with you, YOU WILL PAY FOR IT !
Who do you think you are ,leaving us ? No one likes you anyway ?

[Gordon R]

There won't be as many snouts in the trough, but the trough will not be filled to the brim. The EU idiots have made it clear they don't want or like us - they just want our money. Even then, some people want to remain in that very club. Suckers for punishment or just suckers?

[chrisjpainter]

I'm no Brexit voter, but this didn't half sadden me. Someone on FB:

This was on a post about the opening ceremony of London 2012. It's so sad that one vote by more people turns some into being so ashamed and embarrassed of their country. Pretty shocking, really.

[Mice!]

12 hours ago, ditchman said:

its going to be NO-DEAL.............lets pull out now whilst we still are intact....and watch the skittles fall.........

Always good advice Ditchy, pull out before its too late ??

[Rewulf]

You've got to laugh, the EUs Brexit steering group, has issued an ultimatum, that the EU parliament will veto any withdrawal agreement, unless a hard border is avoided in NI, or a back stop is agreed.

I thought the individual elected MEPs voted how they liked, they are the only democratic part of the process ?

Mr Verhofstadt obviously thinks different, and can predict what they will do before they're asked.

So let's put this in perspective, they want to avoid a hard border , to protect their single market, customs union and ahem , Irish EU citizens ?

But if they don't like our proposal, we get no deal, hard Brexit, and the Irish get a hard border?

Makes perfect sense.?

[ditchman]

im just waiting for Blair to stick his head above the parapit.............he's been a bit quiet of late   proberly having a love in with that snake Heseltine

[old man]

15 hours ago, Gordon R said:

There won't be as many snouts in the trough, but the trough will not be filled to the brim. The EU idiots have made it clear they don't want or like us - they just want our money. Even then, some people want to remain in that very club. Suckers for punishment or just suckers?

That certainly seems to be the case, never wanted except to foot the majority of the expenditure. Sounds familiar?

Our politicians never ever learn?

 

[12gauge82]

20 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Of course the onus is on us! And the EU didn't cause any problems -we're the ones leaving. And yes, the EU has constantly  told us is that it is up to us propose what kind of political and economic relationship we want with it once we leave. How would they know what we might want when we don't even seem to know ourselves? They've also constantly told us that it is not possible for the EU to either compromise the integrity of the single market, or the indivisiblity of  'the' four freedoms of movement' of goods, services, capital and labour,  because these are the bedrock upon which the whole EU is founded. So based what they've always told us,  it was always a given that Barnier would reject May's Chequers proposals. He could do nothing else - he had choice,.

But of course, May knew that all along. The whole White Paper exercise was just a ploy to try and shift the blame for the upcoming consequences of a catastrophic no-deal Brexit onto the EU. In other words this government plays petty political pass the parcel games when it should be negotiating properly on the basis of what is and isn't realistically possible.

You can't blame the EU for the pitiful quality of UK politicians.

 

Let's stop and think about this for a moment, we were tricked into joining the EU in the first place, the country was asked if they wanted to join a trading group, not if we wanted to give up our country as a sovering nation, or allow free movement of people and everything else that we've given up to join.

So when you say "the EU didn't cause any problems" I don't think that's right at all, the first opportunity the people of the UK have been asked "are you happy with what you've been forced into joining as a member of the EU?" Was the referendum and it was a resounding NO, get us out of here! And yet still people are trying to block a democratic vote, that's a dictatorship and is a disgrace and stain on the UKs democratic system.

[Gordon R]

It is ironic that people say that voters in the last referendum didn't know what they were voting for. I would dispute that, but, as 12gauge82 has pointed out, they certainly, definitely did not know what they were voting for when we joined.

From a simple trade agreement, it has crept, by stealth, into control of everything by unelected control freaks.

[oowee]

27 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

It is ironic that people say that voters in the last referendum didn't know what they were voting for. I would dispute that, but, as 12gauge82 has pointed out, they certainly, definitely did not know what they were voting for when we joined.

From a simple trade agreement, it has crept, by stealth, into control of everything by unelected control freaks.

I agree that we probably did not know what we were voting for when we joined ( a little before my time). It was certainly the case that the implications of joining were raised in full in parliament but perhaps not fully spelt out to the electorate and that may in part being a result of a lack of a crystal ball in trying to second guess where the thing may go. There was however a series of additional treaties that members signed upto as they went along. As a result people did not realise the implications of what they were voting for and in any case the Union has evolved by the agreement of its members into something that was not fully foreseen at the start of the process.

The same could be said of the more recent referendum where the implications of leaving were not spelt out largely because they were unknown. The recent negotiation shambles demonstrate this. Whatever the position of the country at exit will be will not be the final position of Brexit. I think if there had been a more rational and organised process for exiting the EU with a clear path for where and what we as a country might head for the vote would probably have been heavily weighted in favour of leave. Unfortunately our political processes do not always allow for a more nuanced argument and discussion. 

How much better would it have been voting for a clear and maybe already negotiated exit process.  Whilst the referendum vote on either side was a vote for the unknown a vote to remain had at least the guiding principles of the Lisbon treaty. What do you think? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Those additional treaties were agreed to by our elected representatives, not by the electorate who quite correctly feel they have been sold down the river as the white elephant has matured into an ungovernable, unrepresentative, un-elected wanner be superstate!

[Gordon R]

Quote

How much better would it have been voting for a clear and maybe already negotiated exit process.  Whilst the referendum vote on either side was a vote for the unknown a vote to remain had at least the guiding principles of the Lisbon treaty. What do you think? 

Until we actually leave, no-one knows what will happen, so the point doesn't arise. The Government could put any scenario to the electorate and then some idiot EU negotiator says we can't have this or that.

Amongst my family and friends, no-one was concerned about the full detail - we just voted to leave. That is what the Remain bunch fail to grasp. They keep spouting about if the electorate had more details, they would have voted the other way. It isn't too difficult to absorb, but there are those who are in complete denial.

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Until we actually leave, no-one knows what will happen, so the point doesn't arise. The Government could put any scenario to the electorate and then some idiot EU negotiator says we can't have this or that.

Amongst my family and friends, no-one was concerned about the full detail - we just voted to leave. That is what the Remain bunch fail to grasp. They keep spouting about if the electorate had more details, they would have voted the other way. It isn't too difficult to absorb, but there are those who are in complete denial.

So then you accept the point that leavers did not know what they were voting for and mostly did not care. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

I voted leave, simply to get away from the white elephant.

[hambone]

What remainers also fail to grasp is that many (myself included) accepted that there MIGHT be a financial hit to take and still voted leave. It's worth the hit to be free long term from the EU parasites (including our home grown ones).

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, hambone said:

What remainers also fail to grasp is that many (myself included) accepted that there MIGHT be a financial hit to take and still voted leave. It's worth the hit to be free long term from the EU parasites (including our home grown ones).

It would be and i would argue could have been possible to leave without risk of a financial hit if the process had been conducted in a different way. With a clear plan there may well have been many others (myself included) that would have voted to leave. 

[old man]

8 minutes ago, oowee said:

So then you accept the point that leavers did not know what they were voting for and mostly did not care. 

I certainly knew what I voted for and am waiting for the out.

Historically it was Ted Heath and a trading partnership. The real snake was John Major who signed us up to closer political union. As is usual he walked away Scot free and even has the gall to be spouting off now.