Essex lorry deaths

[Vince Green]

37 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I thought the Israeli's offered three options to what they call infiltrators:

• $3,500 and a one way ticket home,
• forced deportation (as you mention though I thought it was Rwanda or Uganda) but maybe they have an agreement with Chad for West Africans,
• Imprisonment

And from what I understand most choose the latter, perhaps proving that they are indeed more than economic migrants. I also understand that the Israeli policy is not very popular even with their own public.

Muslims aren't exactly having a great time of it in China at the moment.

Yes Rwanda rings a bell, I said it was somewhere like Chad because I couldn't think where it was they deported people to. The thing about Israel though is the speed with which they do it. Anybody caught today is likely to be on a plane tomorrow or the next day at the latest. No hearings or appeals with legal aid like over here.

I believe if they turn up a second time its straight to prison, do not pass go, do not collect £200.

The Israeli public's disaffection with the policy is not because they find it demeaning. There is a real problem getting enough low paid labourers to do the building work etc, who else would want to work in that heat? They look to places like Dubai with their armies of slave construction workers with envy . Believe me, its not compassion.

Its much the same in Canada, quite a few years back a friend of mine was caught working while on a tourist visa. He was just put straight on a plane home the same day. Nothing heavy handed about it, they dealt with him very firmly though because he broke the rules. He accepted it without a fuss

If it works for Canada, why not here?

Edited October 24, 2019 by Vince Green

[ditchman]

is the lorry driver guilty.............or is he some guy who was contracted in to move a container.........the guilty people tend to keep a very low profile....this young lad was proud of his rig ...he was on facebook..............just dosnt smell right.......................

[johnphilip]

20 minutes ago, ditchman said:

is the lorry driver guilty.............or is he some guy who was contracted in to move a container.........the guilty people tend to keep a very low profile....this young lad was proud of his rig ...he was on facebook..............just dosnt smell right.......................

Simon yes lots of people have been saying , how a descent  person he is , someone said he had just picked the container up , he opened the doors and found those poor people dead , then informed the authority  . Hope he is not involved .

[Newbie to this]

2 hours ago, henry d said:

Mine is the legal definition, so should yours otherwise it is subjective

Mine is, anyone entering the UK illegally, should then never be able to claim asylum or refugee status and should only ever be considered an illegal and have my previous statements enacted upon them and those who exploit them. 

This would then take away any need for them to risk their lives to get to the UK from places of safety like France, because they will never be allowed to stay.

Surely this is the way forward. If these people know that only way to stay in the UK is through legal entry, then this will stop. Now I in no way think that this will be easy to implicate and for some time they will still be risking it all to get to the 'promised land' that is the UK. But eventually it will stop.

[FOXHUNTER1]

So who would pay to look after them ? Country is at bursting point,  dont need any more.

[Jaymo]

4 minutes ago, henry d said:

They would not have been on benefits

Most likely trafficked in to work illegally and kept in squalor as virtual slaves.

Not exactly going to be claiming the old benefits, or be able to claim asylum either!

Just now, FOXHUNTER1 said:

So who would pay to look after them ? Country is at bursting point,  dont need any more.

See above

 

[henry d]

10 minutes ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

So who would pay to look after them ? Country is at bursting point,  dont need any more.

They were trafficked, they were going to be slaves working off a debt or similar. Someone here wanted them to work for a pittance, and for those who normally jump to say "It`s them (insert random nationality here) most likely!" remember it was a white Irish lad that picked the trailer up drove it a short distance and opened it up, not a (insert random nationality here).

[Gordon R]

Quote

Illegal immigrants don`t get any benefits in the UK, refugees (usually asylum seekers) do not get main stream benefits but may be eligible for;

Totally wrong. 

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, henry d said:

They were trafficked, they were going to be slaves working off a debt or similar.

You have no idea this is true.

 

13 minutes ago, henry d said:

Someone here wanted them to work for a pittance, and for those who normally jump to say "It`s them (insert random nationality here) most likely!" remember it was a white Irish lad that picked the trailer up drove it a short distance and opened it up, not a (insert random nationality here).

Not even sure what youre getting at here, 'a white Irish lad'  ? As opposed to a what ? A black/brown Irish lad/lass ?

You make it sound like every person that comes to this country illegally, whether they come to claim asylum or not, does so under duress.
Were these people FORCED into the back of that container ?
Were they promised some kind of 'streets paved with gold' scenario ?
Pretty certain they have internet in CHINA these days, and theres only so many slave labour jobs available.
What you should really be asking , is why the UK is such a favoured destination, how many countries has that container passed through on its journey ?

[henry d]

15 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

Totally wrong. 

Ok, enlighten us....

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Irrelevant and wrong on so many levels.

How so?

I'm not suggesting mine is how it currently is, but how it should be.

So please elaborate, how it is wrong on so many levels.

Is someone who enters the UK illegally, an illegal immigrant or an asylum seeker?

The two things should be completely different and the two things should never be the same.

This in my opinon (along with other things like people exploiting illegals), is largely the problem.

Edited October 24, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Dave-G]

50 minutes ago, henry d said:

They were trafficked, they were going to be slaves working off a debt or similar. Someone here wanted them to work for a pittance, and for those who normally jump to say "It`s them (insert random nationality here) most likely!" remember it was a white Irish lad that picked the trailer up drove it a short distance and opened it up, not a (insert random nationality here).

Do we know if the trailer was taken to its official destination to be unloaded - or just stopped somewhere random to let out the migrants or whatever reason we didn't ought to assume?

 

If he opened it before its declared destination it will be interesting to know what his reason for that was.

[Rewulf]

18 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Is someone who enters the UK illegally, an illegal immigrant or an asylum seeker?

Quite simple in 99 % of cases.

You are an asylum seeker, once you get caught being an illegal immigrant 

If an illegal is never caught, no one ever knows what he was , or will be.

In 2014 estimates made were up to 800,000 people were living here illegally, this does not include people who have claimed asylum, or have been granted ILTR.
https://fullfact.org/immigration/why-we-cant-say-sure-how-many-illegal-immigrants-are-living-uk/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwl8XtBRDAARIsAKfwtxBhYk56kr0s3Yq9aVbaGujwQ5oLXt12rwaPWdj3Ie7LkXi28N4zn_saAimqEALw_wcB

Other estimates put the figure far higher.

https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/illegal-immigration

With the government admitting , they have 'no idea' how many.

Within my own experience, the practice of 'passport swapping' within Pakistani and Indian communities  is rife.

Friend or family member with UK passport travels east, sends similarly looking friend or family member back on return ticket with passport.
That person now resides in the UK , and the person left back east , receives passport via courier or postage, to make his /her return.
The non UK passport holder then marries UK passport holder and gives it a couple of years before announcing presence , often with a few kids to back the claim up.
It happens ALL the time.

[welsh1]

Ladies and Gents,

Could we please remember that 39 people lost their lives in tragic circumstances , please show a little respect for the dead, i have removed one post and there are a couple of others that are borderline.

Thank you.

[henry d]

18 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

How so? Irrelevant as it is subjective and not how the rules apply.

I'm not suggesting mine is how it currently is, but how it should be. Agreed (first part), but if you want it to be like that then become a politician or policy maker.

So please elaborate, how it is wrong on so many levels. (I`ll reply below)

Is someone who enters the UK illegally, an illegal immigrant or an asylum seeker? On entry they are (generalisation) an illegal immigrant as most cannot enter legally due to lack of money, access to a passport, visa etc. but as soon as they are here they can seek asylum. An illegal immigrant is someone who arrives here contrary to immigration rules.

The two things should be completely different and the two things should never be the same. They are different but have similarities, ie. their ingress to the UK.

This in my opinon (along with other things like people exploiting illegals), is largely the problem. It is.

Put yourself in their shoes, and I have to go for a couple of scenarios here.

• You need money for your family and can`t access normal means to loans, so you get into debt with a loan shark. Rates are worse than Wonga and you can`t pay, so they say the UK is the place for you as you can make a fortune there with your skills (this may also cost more too) and we will get you in as we can provide documentation, bribes a safe workplace in the UK. Next thing you are in a trailer being dropped off at a sweatshop, nail bar, massage parlour and told your family will be beaten. tortured, raped, killed if you try to run and the police will deport/jail/torture you if you go to them and it will take 5-10-15 years to work off the debt. If you are brave enough to do a runner your idea of no if`s or but`s deportation means they get turfed out and face being killed, beaten, further debt/trafficking along with your family, thats not exactly the definition of humanity is it?
• You are a gay man from Brunai/Yemen/Iran/Mauritania/saudi/UAE... and someone suspects you are gay and says they will report you to the police for feeling them up if you don`t pay up. You tell them to take a hike no if`s, no but`s go home.... not very humane at all.

Is that wrong enough on any level? On a human level?

[oowee]

So it looks like these are Chinese nationals.  Clearly the victims need to be identified and their families and next of kin advised so that they can be dealt with compassionately and repatriated or whatever is the family's want.  

Interesting investigation will also have to follow to get to the bottom of this dreadful event. If the individuals are trafficked then International co-operation with the Chinese and other international agencies to get to the bottom of the tragedy and bring those responsible to justice. If however they are asylum seekers (Chinese dissidents or whatever) it might be that the police would not want to share the escape route that they uncover or expose the remaining families to persecution. Whilst at the same time those involved still  need to be investigated. 

[Rewulf]

Say wut? 

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/diane-abbott-calls-for-safe-and-legal-refugee-routes-in-wake-of-essex-lorry-deaths/ar-AAJfF7v?ocid=sf

[shaun4860]

5 hours ago, Vince Green said:

He had "sciatica" and chronic back pain (allegedly) I'm sure he did, most people get both, its just a question of how far and how hard you want to push it.

It’s not.....

The only way he could get a mobility car is if he had a mobility component of either DLA or PIP before he reached state pension age. He would then stay on that benefit.

Anyone starting a disablement benefit claim after that would be on AA, which I said doesn’t carry a mobility component.

Once he was reviewed after pension age they can decrease a mobility component but not increase it. But not on AA.

No court in the land can award a mobility component to AA no matter how far you push it because such a thing doesn’t exist!

[Rewulf]

38 minutes ago, henry d said:

Is someone who enters the UK illegally, an illegal immigrant or an asylum seeker? On entry they are (generalisation) an illegal immigrant as most cannot enter legally due to lack of money, access to a passport, visa etc criminal conviction/good reason, that bars them from applying for a visa. but as soon as they are here get caught ,they can seek asylum. An illegal immigrant is someone who arrives here contrary to immigration rules.

 

42 minutes ago, henry d said:

Put yourself in their shoes, and I have to go for a couple of scenarios here.

• You need money for your family and can`t access normal means to loans, so you get into debt with a loan shark. Rates are worse than Wonga and you can`t pay, so they say the UK is the place for you as you can make a fortune there with your skills (this may also cost more too) and we will get you in as we can provide documentation, bribes a safe workplace in the UK. Next thing you are in a trailer being dropped off at a sweatshop, nail bar, massage parlour and told your family will be beaten. tortured, raped, killed if you try to run and the police will deport/jail/torture you if you go to them and it will take 5-10-15 years to work off the debt. If you are brave enough to do a runner your idea of no if`s or but`s deportation means they get turfed out and face being killed, beaten, further debt/trafficking along with your family, thats not exactly the definition of humanity is it?
• You are a gay man from Brunai/Yemen/Iran/Mauritania/saudi/UAE... and someone suspects you are gay and says they will report you to the police for feeling them up if you don`t pay up. You tell them to take a hike no if`s, no but`s go home.... not very humane at all.

Is that wrong enough on any level? On a human level?

Well Im shocked, that means that every refugee, every person working in a sweatshop or restaurant illegally , every one of those non EU 'gentleman' wandering round town centres, and all those poor refugees living in tents at Calais/ Dunkirk , are here because they are in debt and having their families held to ransom , or are gay  ?
I suppose theres no such thing as an economic migrant then, who knew ?

[fse10]

Very sad indeed. About 400 yrds from where i work. Drove passed this morning still closed off with eight police cars & three news van's parked up. Thought the police had said they had moved the trailer to Tilbury docks to remove the bodies.

[bavarianbrit]

When the Dover event happened the Chinese government refused to accept the bodies being sent back. 58 bodies were found in a sealed, airless container at Dover port on June 18, 2000.

[bluesj]

2 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Do we know if the trailer was taken to its official destination to be unloaded - or just stopped somewhere random to let out the migrants or whatever reason we didn't ought to assume?

 

If he opened it before its declared destination it will be interesting to know what his reason for that was.

He may have been asked to pick up an empty trailer and take it to where ever, so picked it up left the docks and parked up for some kip and opened the trailer to show any would be crooks there was nothing to pinch. You see lorries parked up all over with the back doors open, sure they it was even suggested to be a good idea at my cpc course 

[FOXHUNTER1]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Put yourself in their shoes, and I have to go for a couple of scenarios here.

• You need money for your family and can`t access normal means to loans, so you get into debt with a loan shark. Rates are worse than Wonga and you can`t pay, so they say the UK is the place for you as you can make a fortune there with your skills (this may also cost more too) and we will get you in as we can provide documentation, bribes a safe workplace in the UK. Next thing you are in a trailer being dropped off at a sweatshop, nail bar, massage parlour and told your family will be beaten. tortured, raped, killed if you try to run and the police will deport/jail/torture you if you go to them and it will take 5-10-15 years to work off the debt. If you are brave enough to do a runner your idea of no if`s or but`s deportation means they get turfed out and face being killed, beaten, further debt/trafficking along with your family, thats not exactly the definition of humanity is it?
• You are a gay man from Brunai/Yemen/Iran/Mauritania/saudi/UAE... and someone suspects you are gay and says they will report you to the police for feeling them up if you don`t pay up. You tell them to take a hike no if`s, no but`s go home.... not very humane at all.

Is that wrong enough on any level? On a human level?

You look after them then , I dont understand why our country is such a soft touch......oh yes its because of all the do gooders who feel the need to act like God 👼

[Dave-G]

12 minutes ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

You look after them then , I dont understand why our country is such a soft touch......oh yes its because of all the do gooders who feel the need to act like God 👼

Think its more like SOME political do gooders really wanting to cause a larger tax burden on the country.

[henry d]

9 minutes ago, FOXHUNTER1 said:

You look after them then <snipped>

We will be next year when we move to a larger house, the posts on here have helped us to make up our minds to actually do something to help someone who hasn`t much in life as there are so many who have said they "...just don`t care!"

, I dont understand why our country is such a soft touch......oh yes its because of all the do gooders who feel the need to act like God 👼

No its because as a nation we are humanitarian in our outlook otherwise we become inward looking and inhumane in our attitudes to others that need help.