Independence for Scotland

[Walker570]

At least we will have all our own money to spend and not just a percentage decided by non elected numpties in Brussels with the rest being sucked of by the likes of French farmers.

[grrclark]

19 minutes ago, tonker said:

I was told by my mate from Mull, that the  your slightly higher spend per each man woman and child in Scotland is £1500. Is this not correct? that adds up to a goodish bit.

I don’t know what the current numbers are for this year, but broadly that sounds about right.  NI receives the greatest funding per capita then Scotland, Wales and England in that order.

8 minutes ago, Gordon R said:

The difference between the UK and Scotland is that the UK is / soon to be was - a net contributor to the EU. Whereas Scotland is a net beneficiary from the UK. I accept London subsidises the rest of the UK, as well as Scotland.

I just don't see where the replacement funds, brought about by the lack of Barnett subsidy, are coming from. It won't be the EU, as Scotland can't enter the EU, despite what the SNP claim.

The replacement funds for Scotland would have to come from taxation and borrowing if Scotland was to try and choose to maintain the current spending levels, which is simply not practical, hence me saying that in order for it to work there would have to be a fundamental change.  It would work, but it would be a very painful journey to get there.

What would that mean in practice, a significant reduction in the size of the population funded directly or indirectly via the state plus innovation and entrepreneurialism and development of other markets (Also the same as the UK post Brexit argument by the way)  

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

A much needed one ...

Agreed and perhaps one that a lot of folk are not expecting.

[Gordon R]

grrclark - I agree, but Scotland's starting position is well behind the UK's.

[grrclark]

4 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

At least we will have all our own money to spend and not just a percentage decided by non elected numpties in Brussels with the rest being sucked of by the likes of French farmers.

I am supportive of Brexit, but honestly nonsense like that does nobody any favours.  One of my huge regrets around Brexit is the narrative of how there is also going to be something for nothing from such a momentous change, that is just not true.  There is not going to be a dividend in that sense, although I daresay it will be spun as though there is.

I do believe that Brexit will offer greater opportunity because we can become much more dynamic and agile in our approach to trade and commerce, but it is not going to come without a whole lot of hurt for a lot of people first

1 minute ago, Gordon R said:

grrclark - I agree, but Scotland's starting position is well behind the UK's.

I’m not so sure it is really, we do have far too large a reliance on the state in Scotland and far too little a percentage of genuine wealth creation, that cannot be denied, but if you start to consider things like balance of trade and the net positive contribution to the nations current account as a result, Scotland is arguably in a stronger position than rUK.

This is revisiting a lot of discussion on the last indy thread and I waffled on about all that back then so shall spare everyone a second visit.

The upshot of it all, no matter the technical nuances, is that it would mean a generation at least of hurt in Scotland as we would have to embrace state austerity on a savage scale, all other things being equal.  Agreed that is different to the UK starting position for sure.

Brexit will be hurty for the UK for a while, but we will be better for it.  Scexit would be very hurty for Scotland for a good while and could be better for it, but the lost generation or two would lament it forever.

 

 

[Mice!]

58 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The good reason is simple geography and low population density spread across a relatively large land mass with a limited transport infrastructure in the remoter places, think highlands and islands.  Quite simply it costs more to deliver services into those places and that is all there is to it.

The midlands and especially the north should indeed see lots of infrastructure spending and it is needed too.

I can understand what you mean with the highlands and islands,  but Edinburgh,  Glasgow,  Perth,  Dundee,  Aberdeen etc are no different from there equivalents in England,  some areas will need money some areas you'll avoid some will be amazing. 

Areas in the Midlands and North certainly do need and want money,  I personally wish they would scrap HS2 or what ever it's called, save minutes on your journey time to London? Couldn't care less I'd rather the roads and rail locally were better.

[Gordon R]

Quote

Brexit will be hurty for the UK for a while, but we will be better for it.  Scexit would be very hurty for Scotland for a good while and could be better for it, but the lost generation or two would lament it forever.

Decent summary.

[grrclark]

1 minute ago, Mice! said:

I can understand what you mean with the highlands and islands,  but Edinburgh,  Glasgow,  Perth,  Dundee,  Aberdeen etc are no different from there equivalents in England,  some areas will need money some areas you'll avoid some will be amazing. 

Areas in the Midlands and North certainly do need and want money,  I personally wish they would scrap HS2 or what ever it's called, save minutes on your journey time to London? Couldn't care less I'd rather the roads and rail locally were better.

Agreed, the central belt of Scotland is a different funding consideration relative to other places.  The problem England has, or the north of England particularly when it comes to Barnet considerations is that it is all bundled together and everything is skewed by the midlands and south.

It interesting that in almost every developed nation the economic size of the capital city is the same or less than the next two biggest cities combined.  In the UK London is economically bigger than the next 6 biggest cities combined (I think from memory).

It is a huge disparity in the UK.

[TRINITY]

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

 

It interesting that in almost every developed nation the economic size of the capital city is the same or less than the next two biggest cities combined.  In the UK London is economically bigger than the next 6 biggest cities combined (I think from memory).

It is a huge disparity in the UK.

Just looking at EU cities, London looks like it has a population of the next 3 biggest cities combined (allowing for slight variations in different web sites)

However let's not forget that approximate 8 million London figure is only people that we know about 

[grrclark]

2 minutes ago, TRINITY said:

Just looking at EU cities, London looks like it has a population of the next 3 biggest cities combined (allowing for slight variations in different web sites)

However let's not forget that approximate 8 million London figure is only people that we know about 

London is a genuine world powerhouse city.  I’ll need to hunt around and find the reference material that talked about the economic value of cities and wealth distribution and highlighted the disparity.

[Walker570]

To my mind we are by far better together. It is amazing that the few friends I have north of the border are 'country people' and the last thing they want is independence forced upon them  if at all.   Some of us are old enough to remember the time when a 'united front' from the UK defeated evil  and the offer of two ounces of real butter from the grocer was grabbed in glee.

I remember times when my mother came home with two peaches which she carefully skinned halved and preserved for Christmas.  About time the present genration realised just how lucky they are.  Don't get me on so called homeless, they where all born somewhere so have family, where are they, why are they homeless and why should we foot the bill.

[TRINITY]

2 minutes ago, grrclark said:

London is a genuine world powerhouse city.  I’ll need to hunt around and find the reference material that talked about the economic value of cities and wealth distribution and highlighted the disparity.

From what I gather its population is equal to the combined totals of Paris,Berlin and Rome. 

[Dibble]

London is the Political, Financial, Legal and Media/Entertainment capital most other countries spread it around

[old'un]

25 minutes ago, Dibble said:

London is the Political, Financial, Legal and Media/Entertainment capital most other countries spread it around

Well I think Boris as promised to-do just that, we will see.

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, TRINITY said:

From what I gather its population is equal to the combined totals of Paris,Berlin and Rome. 

I've been to Rome and wouldn't imagine it's that big simply because there is no high rise.

But I know what you mean,  by there being lots of folk there.

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

Well I think Boris as promised to-do just that, we will see.

I hope so, and that's from a Londoner.

Investment and spreading jobs across the whole UK has been needed for a long time.

It takes me at least 2 hours to get to work and if I don't leave early 2 hours at least to get home.

There are too many people concentrated in London. The roads cannot cope.

[Dibble]

None of the infrastructure can cope, roads ,schools, hospitals yet we keep building more housing.

If you had asked me a few years ago I would have said Governments can't and shouldn't engineer population moves you just end up with soulless towns nobody actually wants to live in. Now I believe we need to not only increase pull factors to make other cities more attractive but also push people from London.

Back to the Scottish independence issue London of course voted strongly to remain in the EU, if we followed Sturgeons lead and used this as an excuse to leave the Union Scotland would be truely stuffed.

[London Best]

5 minutes ago, Dibble said:

Now I believe we need to not only increase pull factors to make other cities more attractive but also push people from London.

 

No, no, no! We don’t want any more people up here. You keep ‘em all in London.

[Deker]

13 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

I hope so, and that's from a Londoner.

Investment and spreading jobs across the whole UK has been needed for a long time.

It takes me at least 2 hours to get to work and if I don't leave early 2 hours at least to get home.

There are too many people concentrated in London. The roads cannot cope.

 

None of the transport can cope there, I was waiting for over 30 minutes to actually get on a tube from Clapham South on the Northern Line at rush hour (I ended up being 15 minutes late), the tubes were arriving every 2 minutes but were rammed full (at the doors with space in the aisles), I don't know why they don't have carriages without seats for rush hour (maybe a few seated ones at the front/rear for the people who actually need them), this would allow far more people on.

Every road journey takes at least 30 minutes.

[Harnser]

This sturgeon woman is getting me more angry every time I see her on tv. She never mentions the union ,it’s always Scotland ,Scotland .scotland . I think that she wants to become the queen of Scotland . Dosent she know that we have a queen of Scotland who is more Scottish than she is English . I love Scotland and the good people north of the border and I have a number of good old boy jocks for friends none of them can stand the women . It would be a real shame for the Scots to leave the union ,for crying out loud we are all Brits . 
harnser

 

 

[markm]

My wife is Scottish and folk up there all claim to hate her....  but people must be voting for her. 
 

If they do leave, I don’t want hard border*, but they must take fiscal responsibility and they don’t get the British £. 

 

*They ain’t getting their cake and eating it.....

[figgy]

It would have to be a hard border, they'd all be sneaking over it from Europe when the migrants find out porridge oats haggis taties and neaps isn't very nice everyday. Especially when her economy tanks.

The woman's a fool and I think that lots of Scott's I've spoken to don't like or want independence, but they don't bother to vote, the hardened independent wanting Scott's do vote and are very vocal about it. 

I know nearly all the English I talk to are saying if we had a vote Scotland would be gone, they're sick of hearing sturgeon bleating and moaning.

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by figgy

[Westward]

48 minutes ago, markm said:

*They ain’t getting their cake and eating it.....

I think that's exactly the intention because otherwise they'd never have a chance of the EU membership they so desperately crave. And that's because Scotland would be fiscally unsustainable if they accepted their full pro rata share of the national debt and took over from Westminster all the bail out funding for the Scottish banks etc. Couple that with losing at least 750,000 UK public sector jobs that were embedded in Scotland and which would be progressively shipped south. Even if they were given a pass on all those 10s of billions it's still highly doubtful if Scotland's GDP would be sufficient or that they would have a workable credit rating in order to borrow. The SNP isn't quite as Marxist as Corbyn and Co but is still very strongly left wing, which is why they've been able to destroy Labour in Scotland, but history proves that the grab and spend method of running a country isn't sustainable long term and independence would soon bring stringent cuts to public spending. Sensible Scots know this of course and also that the family ties with Britain are a much better bet than becoming one of the serf nations in the EU like Romania. Having said that I would be quite happy to wave goodbye to Scotland but only if they picked up their fair share fiscally.

As a descendant of Scots I admire the emotional connection to Scottish culture and the sense of a unique identity, but it's also evident that the "real" Scots in the north are generally not as rampant about independence as the mongrel Scots in the central belt.

Edited December 19, 2019 by Westward

[old man]

52 minutes ago, markm said:

My wife is Scottish and folk up there all claim to hate her....  but people must be voting for her. 
.

Maybe with some influence from Ivan?

[scouser]

I’m fed up with the poison dwarf spouting off about independence, call her bluff, the Scottish are not soft they know what side they’re bread buttered, she will be out of a job quicker than Jeremy Corbyn.

[Fisheruk]

I can’t see this independence thing happening. Once the Brexit thing is out of the way and the UK economy survives it’ll take the wind out of her sails. That’s why she is beating the drum so much now, because she knows this is her best chance, when you are at an all time high you can only come down. She’s just waiting for the bump!