Update from BASC / DEFRA

[mossy835]

for get what is going on, as said if you want to go then just go.me im not shooting till its all over.

[Dave-G]

It'd be interesting to know what percentages of pigeon shooters Vs FAC shooters contributing to this discussion are concerned about keeping their shooting given we are seeing so many posts citing pigeon as not important at this time.

As I have said earlier FAC holders are a lot more obliged to assist their permission givers as they have to retain written permission on land to justify their ticket and/or calibre even though the shooting may not seem essential at this specific time.

I refer for example to rabbit, corvid, canada, mole, rat etc - which may not be considered essential by plod - but are to the farmer, plant nursery, equestrian centre golf club etc.... And the bloke shooting alone who wants to keep his reason to hold each of his guns having proved himself to be a responsible person to the chief constable.

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Dave-G

[JJsDad]

4 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

genuinely don't understand the fuss.

DEFRA has issued guidance, which, to sum up, amounts to: In general no, but if you can justify it for immediate crop/livestock protection, go for it.

That is as good as we're going to get; shooting does not need the blow-back associated with pushing this further.  If you truly think the 'optics' of BASC pushing this hard will help us in the long term, you're naïve (seemingly the PW word of the day).

Finally, those of you who want everything clarified in law, have clearly never heard of the law of unintended consequences. Dangerous Dogs act anyone?

If you do want everything prescribed in law, I suggest you all move to Germany PDQ, COVID-19 and Brexit allowing, and take the applicable State's hunters exam.  Good luck going from zero to licenced to shoot in less than 5 years.  And be prepared to put in a lot of work maintaining your local hunting ground ('Revier').

This sums it up entirely

[8 shot]

1 hour ago, Westley said:

Can I suggest that the NFU get on to DEFRA for some clarity on the current situation then  ?

They’re the farming version of the BASC, no teeth, not up for the fight, they’re  just interested in trying to make money, or not if the last year or two are anything to go by, to pay the over inflated wages there top brass command. 

[Big Mat]

I think any issues that may arise from someone going shooting at this time, will boil down to which police officer stops them.

For instance, the current rules state that I can check my livestock that are off site, once a day, whilst combining it with my daily exercise, now who thought that up? I've got to be there twice a day incase any give birth, now if I get pulled, techincally I'm in the wrong, but will common sense prevail? Who knows.

Will I go shooting at the moment? Probably not, unless I'm asked to, then I might. 

For risk of getting or giving covid 19, I'd have far less chance whilst out shooting than I did going to Morrisons on sunday.

[motty]

1 hour ago, old'un said:

Because there is not a lot of growing crops that pigeons are likely to damage.

So, rape, peas and cabbages don't need protection?

[Westley]

Just now, motty said:

So, rape, peas and cabbages don't need protection?

In that case I would suggest that you are fully justified, so go for it. Probably a shame that pigeons don't eat loo rolls too really   !

PS.

Should it go wrong you could always say that you cleared it on PW first  !

Edited March 31, 2020 by Westley

[clangerman]

30 minutes ago, motty said:

So, rape, peas and cabbages don't need protection?

talking of cabbages who came  up with the idea of recruiting fifty thousand PLUS to pick fruit and veg in the COUNTRYSIDE? when it’s so called to dangerous to sit in a empty field it’s definitely to dangerous to pick spuds 

[marsh man]

2 hours ago, motty said:

I disagree that we are coming up to the quietest time of year. I have shot many a good bag in April and May on plenty of different crops.

There is a hell of a lot of drilling still to be done around my way, and rape that is still being hammered. Peas plants will also be sprouting. Plenty of vegetables will also be getting hit. Honestly, if we can't justify shooting at this time of year, then we can't during any period!

Tell me , after you have got around all the red tape , and the landowner requested your services to shoot as many as you can because he is worried about losing his crop to pigeon damage , you then load your motor with 2 / 3 slabs of cartridges and all the rest of your gear , within a mile or so from leaving your house you get stopped by a police road block , after showing them the paper work  that your services are vital because pigeons are attacking a food crop , after the police make inquiries to there superior they let you go on your way , you pull up to the field and yes there are few on the field and plenty flying about , with you knowing what you are doing you start building up a bag and getting through a lot of shells , then things slow down and it is time to sack all your pigeons up and head for home , on the way home you get stopped again by a different road block after telling them the same as you had told the police in the morning they let you go once again .

Now getting home with a load of pigeons , what do you do with them ? , every where is on lockdown and no outlet is open , the dealers don't want them as they export most of what they take in and the E U is on lock down and now the Spannish have moved up a gear to say they are in hibernation , you can't take them to the tip because they are all shut down , and your freezers are already full.

When the question was put to our good friend P C , What would you do if you could no longer offload your Pigeons ? , there was no beating about the bush he said outright he would stop shooting them , 

So after after all the hassle you had to save the farmers crops , you have now got to find a nigh on impossible home for your shot pigeons , and even if you did know somebody who would have them , they can't come after them and you can't take them .

All I can say , if all the landowners stopped people like me and many others on the forum from going when and if this crisis pass over because we are staying off the roads and in self isolation then if you got through this in one piece you are going to have a colossal amount of land to go on . Stay in and STAY SAFE 

 

[clangerman]

46 minutes ago, marsh man said:

Tell me , after you have got around all the red tape , and the landowner requested your services to shoot as many as you can because he is worried about losing his crop to pigeon damage , you then load your motor with 2 / 3 slabs of cartridges and all the rest of your gear , within a mile or so from leaving your house you get stopped by a police road block , after showing them the paper work  that your services are vital because pigeons are attacking a food crop , after the police make inquiries to there superior they let you go on your way , you pull up to the field and yes there are few on the field and plenty flying about , with you knowing what you are doing you start building up a bag and getting through a lot of shells , then things slow down and it is time to sack all your pigeons up and head for home , on the way home you get stopped again by a different road block after telling them the same as you had told the police in the morning they let you go once again .

Now getting home with a load of pigeons , what do you do with them ? , every where is on lockdown and no outlet is open , the dealers don't want them as they export most of what they take in and the E U is on lock down and now the Spannish have moved up a gear to say they are in hibernation , you can't take them to the tip because they are all shut down , and your freezers are already full.

When the question was put to our good friend P C , What would you do if you could no longer offload your Pigeons ? , there was no beating about the bush he said outright he would stop shooting them , 

So after after all the hassle you had to save the farmers crops , you have now got to find a nigh on impossible home for your shot pigeons , and even if you did know somebody who would have them , they can't come after them and you can't take them .

All I can say , if all the landowners stopped people like me and many others on the forum from going when and if this crisis pass over because we are staying off the roads and in self isolation then if you got through this in one piece you are going to have a colossal amount of land to go on . Stay in and STAY SAFE 

 

any fresh meat you eat will have been handled by the slaughter house staff super market or butchers staff and probably by a wholesalers staff pigeons are handled by two people shooter plus the cook take you pick which you prefer 

[motty]

2 hours ago, marsh man said:

Tell me , after you have got around all the red tape , and the landowner requested your services to shoot as many as you can because he is worried about losing his crop to pigeon damage , you then load your motor with 2 / 3 slabs of cartridges and all the rest of your gear , within a mile or so from leaving your house you get stopped by a police road block , after showing them the paper work  that your services are vital because pigeons are attacking a food crop , after the police make inquiries to there superior they let you go on your way , you pull up to the field and yes there are few on the field and plenty flying about , with you knowing what you are doing you start building up a bag and getting through a lot of shells , then things slow down and it is time to sack all your pigeons up and head for home , on the way home you get stopped again by a different road block after telling them the same as you had told the police in the morning they let you go once again .

Now getting home with a load of pigeons , what do you do with them ? , every where is on lockdown and no outlet is open , the dealers don't want them as they export most of what they take in and the E U is on lock down and now the Spannish have moved up a gear to say they are in hibernation , you can't take them to the tip because they are all shut down , and your freezers are already full.

When the question was put to our good friend P C , What would you do if you could no longer offload your Pigeons ? , there was no beating about the bush he said outright he would stop shooting them , 

So after after all the hassle you had to save the farmers crops , you have now got to find a nigh on impossible home for your shot pigeons , and even if you did know somebody who would have them , they can't come after them and you can't take them .

All I can say , if all the landowners stopped people like me and many others on the forum from going when and if this crisis pass over because we are staying off the roads and in self isolation then if you got through this in one piece you are going to have a colossal amount of land to go on . Stay in and STAY SAFE 

 

If I had a surplus, there would be nothing stopping anyone picking them up from me. No different to them driving to the butcher.

[motty]

4 hours ago, old'un said:

By that I presume you mean peas laying on the top?

They could be 2" tall by now.

[clangerman]

22 minutes ago, motty said:

They could be 2" tall by now.

mine have just gone in first time i ever wished the damn pigeons were not there lol 

[Dave-G]

13 hours ago, clangerman said:

Talking of cabbages - who came  up with the idea of recruiting fifty thousand PLUS to pick fruit and veg in the COUNTRYSIDE?  When it’s so called too dangerous to sit in a empty field its definitely too dangerous to pick spuds. 

That's the mentality of politicians and those who think politicians know best so follow their 'one size fits all' advice.

That talking of cabbages bit was very cleverly worded. 

[Gameking]

32 minutes ago, Dave-G said:

That's the mentality of politicians and those who think politicians know best so follow their 'one size fits all' advice.

That talking of cabbages bit was very cleverly worded. 

Perhaps the Vegans in the Government departments ( + Boris's new bird) have realised that the tofu and avocados may be more difficult to get with all flights grounded and it's a fair carbon neutral, whilst getting your daily exercise , cycle ride to Mexico for avocados.

Those nasty men with guns could save our cabbage (or bacon😁)

[Stonepark]

The legislation as it was passed permitted the following: -

Restrictions on movement

6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(b)to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;

(f)to travel for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;

 

The above does not limit outing to one per day, nor does it stop work which is required, both of which vermin control may be considered in order to protect livestock or crops where required.

Below is an example of what I would have a farmer sign on their letterhead preferably if I was intending to go out to undertake necessary vermin control and  to produce to police where required.

 

Dear Joe,

Evidence of Critical/Key Worker Status

Name: Joe Bloggs

Role Title: Vermin Controller - Food and other Necessary Goods

As part of the UK Government’s Coronavirus lockdown measures, you might be stopped and asked whether travel to and from your normal place of work or other work sites is essential or asked to provide evidence that you are a critical worker who is required to carry out essential duties albeit on an unpaid and volunteer basis.

The purpose of this letter is to confirm that we consider that, given the nature of your role and the fact it can only be done on site where the damage is taking place your travel to work is essential in order to perform the work that you carry out for Big Farm, Down the Lane, Some shire, your role has been identified as a critical or key worker role in terms of Farmer Jones’s business continuity arrangements.

Please ensure that you carry with you at all times:

1. A copy of this letter.

2. A copy of your Shotgun/Firearm Certificate

Based on current Government guidance we understand that these documents will provide sufficient evidence that your travel to and from work has been deemed essential based on the nature of your role.

Please also take this letter as confirmation that we consider you to be a ‘critical’ or ‘key’ worker role in terms of Farmer Jones’s business continuity arrangements.

Please over the coming weeks, take into account the appropriate government guidelines on self-isolation and social distancing, and ensuring that you work and travel safely and responsibly at all times.

If you or anyone to whom this is relevant have any questions on any of the information set out in this letter, please contact Farmer.Jones@Bigfarm.co.uk or 07*********.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Farmer Jones

 

 

[PeterHenry]

40 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

The legislation as it was passed permitted the following: -

Restrictions on movement

6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(b)to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;

(f)to travel for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;

 

The above does not limit outing to one per day, nor does it stop work which is required, both of which vermin control may be considered in order to protect livestock or crops where required.

Below is an example of what I would have a farmer sign on their letterhead preferably if I was intending to go out to undertake necessary vermin control and  to produce to police where required.

 

Dear Joe,

Evidence of Critical/Key Worker Status

Name: Joe Bloggs

Role Title: Vermin Controller - Food and other Necessary Goods

As part of the UK Government’s Coronavirus lockdown measures, you might be stopped and asked whether travel to and from your normal place of work or other work sites is essential or asked to provide evidence that you are a critical worker who is required to carry out essential duties albeit on an unpaid and volunteer basis.

The purpose of this letter is to confirm that we consider that, given the nature of your role and the fact it can only be done on site where the damage is taking place your travel to work is essential in order to perform the work that you carry out for Big Farm, Down the Lane, Some shire, your role has been identified as a critical or key worker role in terms of Farmer Jones’s business continuity arrangements.

Please ensure that you carry with you at all times:

1. A copy of this letter.

2. A copy of your Shotgun/Firearm Certificate

Based on current Government guidance we understand that these documents will provide sufficient evidence that your travel to and from work has been deemed essential based on the nature of your role.

Please also take this letter as confirmation that we consider you to be a ‘critical’ or ‘key’ worker role in terms of Farmer Jones’s business continuity arrangements.

Please over the coming weeks, take into account the appropriate government guidelines on self-isolation and social distancing, and ensuring that you work and travel safely and responsibly at all times.

If you or anyone to whom this is relevant have any questions on any of the information set out in this letter, please contact Farmer.Jones@Bigfarm.co.uk or 07*********.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Farmer Jones

 

 

Perfect

[Rewulf]

44 minutes ago, PeterHenry said:

Perfect

+1

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, ladyjack said:

Just had  FO on phone,about my SGC AND FAC RENEWAL, after a few questions she said my cents would be posted to me,she also said that if I go shooting at this time,(lockdown)for the protection of crops and live stock, could I make sure that I continue with social distance, so therefore I for one are now looking forward to being able to go out shooting, (straight from the horses mouth)as the saying goes, so branchers beware, so once again I have to say, WELL DONE NEWCASTLE FIRE ARMS DEPT,

On another thread.

[B725]

I have just emailed Derbyshire Police for their take on being able to be out shooting on the proviso of isolation, I will let you know the reply when it comes.

[old'un]

5 minutes ago, B725 said:

I have just emailed Derbyshire Police for their take on being able to be out shooting on the proviso of isolation, I will let you know the reply when it comes.

I did the exact same today, Westmid/Staffs, nothing back yet, I bet they will be getting a few emails over the next few days, I will also report if I get any news from them.

[clangerman]

well clangerman has shot the peas don’t think it appropriate to go into the day so avoided all contact never touched the gate police did stop but happy with what they seen drove on despite claims you won’t be able to give the bag away half is already gone so all in all a success for common sense so make your own mind up if you have a VALID reason i see no problem with going 

[Newbie to this]

13 minutes ago, clangerman said:

well clangerman has shot the peas don’t think it appropriate to go into the day so avoided all contact never touched the gate police did stop but happy with what they seen drove on despite claims you won’t be able to give the bag away half is already gone so all in all a success for common sense so make your own mind up if you have a VALID reason i see no problem with going 

[Whitebridges]

I enjoyed reading the opinions on here as always. 

A number of Q's spring to my mind.

1. This Coronavirus could stay with us for many many months. No one is certain how long it will take to disappear. Could be years. 

2. At the moment we are looking good for food, brassica's grains, root crops, spuds, etc. This could easily change. For example do you think our friends in Italy and france will have bumper yields this year? No way.

3. Brexit means what for food on the table?

I could and will probably shoot several fields in Norfolk that are at least 5 miles away from people, a village shop, garage, bakery, garden centre, etc.etc. So i will carry on shooting pigeons for the greater good. I will not be putting any person at risk through my pursuits and that is a fact. I'd like to think i'm doing some good. 

It's a bit of a wreckage on here at times with so much criticism directed at the wise and worldly, but there you go, a sad sign of the times we live in.     

 

                 

[old'un]

16 hours ago, old'un said:

I did the exact same today, Westmid/Staffs, nothing back yet, I bet they will be getting a few emails over the next few days, I will also report if I get any news from them.

 

Well that’s about as clear as mud, the response from Westmidlands/Staffordshire Police

 

Dear David

 We haven’t been given any guidance on this question as yet but can only refer you to the Government guidelines which state you can only go outside for one of the following reasons:

 

Shopping for basic necessities

One form of exercise a day

Any medical need or to provide help for a vulnerable person

Travelling to and from work but only where this can absolutely cannot be done from home

 

Kind regards

Sue Johnson