Is this the Final, Final, Final Deadline for a Deal

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

4 RN vessels against how many French boats?  How can they intervene?  There is little they can do other than escort them from British waters IF they will move to order (which I doubt they will).  They can be reported to the French authorities ......... who will do the same as they do about migrants - nothing.

 

[oowee]

1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said:

Not so at all.  The vote eas simply to have control of our own waters - which should not give rise to disharmony.  The dividing line is 'mid way'.  However, we always knew that fishing was going to be difficult; Macron made that quite clear a long time ago when he said France would not accept any reduction.  But the disruption will be caused by the French fisherman entering UK waters when they no longer have any agreement to do so.  That is not of our doing - I understand they have been offered agreements amounting to a reduction over a phased 5 to 7 year period.  It is them breaking the international rules that will cause the 'disharmony' - and that will happen because they refused the 5 to 7 year phased transition.

I would not disagree but surely it was to be expected? How long did the last fishing agreement take to organise? 

The same will happen here when we put UK farms out of business with cheap imports and saturated dairy markets and try and placate them with environmental subsidies. It's the disruption we were expecting as part of the process of devolvement. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. 

 

[JohnfromUK]

22 minutes ago, oowee said:

I would not disagree but surely it was to be expected?

The fact that a spoiled child is expected to misbehave when it doesn't get it's way is no reason to give in to his demands. 

22 minutes ago, oowee said:

How long did the last fishing agreement take to organise?

I don't know, but I assume the present arrangement goes back mainly to when we joined?  Ted Heath was one of the weakest leaders we have had - and would have sold his mother to just join.

22 minutes ago, oowee said:

You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. 

No - but you can make an omelet the easy way (with an agreement) - or the hard way (no agreement).  From what I have read, the UK has offered a lot of concessions (of a phasing down nature) on fishing etc, and the idea that we MUST completely conform to any rule they may make in the future is a non starter - and can only realistically be a demand designed to scupper the process ........ rather like the one in Starmer's 'five tests' where one of them amounted to 'nothing must change'.

Edited December 12, 2020 by JohnfromUK

[Lampwick]

Looks fun!! If we have the nadgers! 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1371575/Royal-Navy-ships-brexit-no-deal-English-channel-French-fisherman-EU-news/amp

Of course they play by the rules 🤥

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1371575/Royal-Navy-ships-brexit-no-deal-English-channel-French-fisherman-EU-news/amp

[dead eye alan]

3 hours ago, walshie said:

It's the absolute latest, final, final, "I really mean it this time", no messing about, full stop deadline.

Until Sunday. 

Or we will find you in a ditch somewhere?  😎

[12gauge82]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

I would not disagree but surely it was to be expected? How long did the last fishing agreement take to organise? 

The same will happen here when we put UK farms out of business with cheap imports and saturated dairy markets and try and placate them with environmental subsidies. It's the disruption we were expecting as part of the process of devolvement. You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs. 

 

I'm more concerned with getting a poor deal than a "hard" brexit, brexiteers will rejoice at a hard brexit, most would be even happier with a sensible trade deal, but any deal that betrays the leave vote is unacceptable. 

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'm more concerned with getting a poor deal than a "hard" brexit, brexiteers will rejoice at a hard brexit, most would be even happier with a sensible trade deal, but any deal that betrays the leave vote is unacceptable. 

And will lead to a change in Government, as people will remember which party was in power when it all went wrong.

[Mungler]

Fishing is a total red herring, pardon the pun. The real battle is financial services because we are predominantly a services based economy and if there’s a deal that screws fishing but protects london then...

About now, I couldn’t give a monkeys because:

1. My worrying about it won’t help

2. No one in government cares what I think / post on Facey

What I have seen in the pandemic is just how industrious we can be as a nation - or rather there remains a large chunk of people in our country that will work, do want to earn money and get on and are prepared to duck and dive and roll with the punches and change if need be. I don’t think the continent have much of that mentality - it’s years of socialism, form stamping and asking permission of a bureaucrat before doing anything.

So, I am content that whatever happens we can and will change and there is no such things as the end. If it’s a balls up, we’ll have to adjust won’t we?

Oh, and getting out of the club that’s going to have to fund the Covid economic bail out of Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Italy etc.... well I don’t see the EU lasting much longer. I’m still gutted the French didn’t vote in Le Penn - it only take a little table turner like that for the whole pack of cards to come down.

 

[Vince Green]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

4 RN vessels against how many French boats?  How can they intervene?  There is little they can do other than escort them from British waters IF they will move to order (which I doubt they will).  They can be reported to the French authorities ......... who will do the same as they do about migrants - nothing.

This is exactly what is going on right now with quota breaking. Not all those four vessels can be at sea at the same time so its more like two most of the time. With mobile phones the French and Spanish trawlers know where the Fishery Protection Vessels are, or more precisely where they are not at any given time.

When they know its safe to do so they just fill their hold and head back to their home port sticking two fingers up to the silly British.

A British fisherman has to account for his catch at the quay side but the French and Spanish fishermen don't appear to suffer the same inspection.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Vince Green

[foxbuster]

10 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Fishing is a total red herring, pardon the pun. The real battle is financial services because we are predominantly a services based economy and if there’s a deal that screws fishing but protects london then...

About now, I couldn’t give a monkeys because:

1. My worrying about it won’t help

2. No one in government cares what I think / post on Facey

What I have seen in the pandemic is just how industrious we can be as a nation - or rather there remains a large chunk of people in our country that will work, do want to earn money and get on and are prepared to duck and dive and roll with the punches and change if need be. I don’t think the continent have much of that mentality - it’s years of socialism, form stamping and asking permission of a bureaucrat before doing anything.

So, I am content that whatever happens we can and will change and there is no such things as the end. If it’s a balls up, we’ll have to adjust won’t we?

Oh, and getting out of the club that’s going to have to fund the Covid economic bail out of Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Italy etc.... well I don’t see the EU lasting much longer. I’m still gutted the French didn’t vote in Le Penn - it only take a little table turner like that for the whole pack of cards to come down.

 

Well said.
Let’s do what we’re good at and adapt and prosper. No doubt there’ll be some obstacles along the way but I’m sure we’ll come out the other side a lot better off.  

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

but the French and Spanish fishermen don't appear to suffer the same inspection.

That I can well believe!  The French have always broken rules when it suits them - but are the first to whine when anyone else does.  I've never done much business with the Spanish, but have done a fair bit with the French - and rules only apply when it suits them.  Not good people to try and do business with.

25 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Fishing is a total red herring, pardon the pun. The real battle is financial services because we are predominantly a services based economy and if there’s a deal that screws fishing but protects london then...

I agree that fishing is 'small fry' (again pardon pun), but I haven't heard that there is much argument about Financial Services?  The three areas reported as 'sticking points' as I understand it are;

1. Fisheries - quotas for future years - where we have offered a partial deal for 5 to 7 years - but they want more
2. Compliance with future leglislation - where we have to sign up to future (as yet unspecified) rules
3. Processes for legal redress for non compliace etc.  (who has final say - where they are demanding they alone have final 'highest court' status)

The other (quoted as 97% of) areas are said to be agreed in principle including a wide range of matters on transport, security, defence, free trading, borders etc.

[oowee]

17 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

This is exactly what is going on right now with quota breaking. Not all those four vessels can be at sea at the same time so its more like two most of the time. With mobile phones the French and Spanish trawlers know where the Fishery Protection Vessels are, or more precisely where they are not at any given time.

When they know its safe to do so they just fill their hold and head back to their home port sticking two fingers up to the silly British.

A British fisherman has to account for his catch at the quay side but the French and Spanish fishermen don't appear to suffer the same inspection.

If there is quota breaking then why do we know about it and why do we let it happen?  Surely the fact that we are turning a blind eye to it is the concern rather than who is committing the crime? 

44 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I'm more concerned with getting a poor deal than a "hard" brexit, brexiteers will rejoice at a hard brexit, most would be even happier with a sensible trade deal, but any deal that betrays the leave vote is unacceptable. 

 

Are you not concerned that a big opportunity of Brexit is to do deals around the world and trade where we want? If that is the case and we cannot get a deal locally what chance the rest?

Maybe we have to cut standards and wages and reduce the Burdon of hangers on (pensioners etc) to make us more competetive first? 

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

 

1. Fisheries - quotas for future years - where we have offered a partial deal for 5 to 7 years - but they want more
2. Compliance with future leglislation - where we have to sign up to future (as yet unspecified) rules
3. Processes for legal redress for non compliace etc.  (who has final say - where they are demanding they alone have final 'highest court' status)

The other (quoted as 97% of) areas are said to be agreed in principle including a wide range of matters on transport, security, defence, free trading, borders etc.

The latter two are the big ones of course that we have to barter away in any meaningful trade agreement. Number two covers standards (environmental. legal, criminal, work force and the rest). 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

Fishing is a total red herring, pardon the pun. The real battle is financial services because we are predominantly a services based economy and if there’s a deal that screws fishing but protects london then...

About now, I couldn’t give a monkeys because:

1. My worrying about it won’t help

2. No one in government cares what I think / post on Facey

What I have seen in the pandemic is just how industrious we can be as a nation - or rather there remains a large chunk of people in our country that will work, do want to earn money and get on and are prepared to duck and dive and roll with the punches and change if need be. I don’t think the continent have much of that mentality - it’s years of socialism, form stamping and asking permission of a bureaucrat before doing anything.

So, I am content that whatever happens we can and will change and there is no such things as the end. If it’s a balls up, we’ll have to adjust won’t we?

Oh, and getting out of the club that’s going to have to fund the Covid economic bail out of Portugal, Ireland, Greece, Italy etc.... well I don’t see the EU lasting much longer. I’m still gutted the French didn’t vote in Le Penn - it only take a little table turner like that for the whole pack of cards to come down.

 

And this is basically the reason I’ve never been too fussed with all the doom and gloom nor the mongers thereof since before we voted to leave and ever since. 
I’ve been made redundant three times throughout my working life, once just months after taking on a mortgage after a longtime girlfriend told me she was pregnant. Was I concerned? Damn right I was! 😀

But we change with change, and we adapt. That’s what we do; there are no alternatives. 

[12gauge82]

48 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

Are you not concerned that a big opportunity of Brexit is to do deals around the world and trade where we want? If that is the case and we cannot get a deal locally what chance the rest?

Maybe we have to cut standards and wages and reduce the Burdon of hangers on (pensioners etc) to make us more competetive first? 

 

Absolutely, but I've no doubt that will come, the problem with the EU is they don't want a fair deal, so as it stands a much rather leave. 

If you go to look at a car worth 50k but the seller won't let it go for less than a million, there's not a lot to talk about, you walk off, that's what we need to do with the EU. They're not offering a fair deal, which is of course their perogative, but since they won't be reasonable, we leave without a deal, that's exactly what was voted for. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

If there is quota breaking then why do we know about it and why do we let it happen?  Surely the fact that we are turning a blind eye to it is the concern rather than who is committing the crime? 

Knowing about is one thing. Enforcing it is not down to the UK. It is down to other countries who don't hold quotas in as high regard, as the UK does. That isn't turning a blind eye by the UK.

[Mungler]

1 hour ago, Scully said:

And this is basically the reason I’ve never been too fussed with all the doom and gloom nor the mongers thereof since before we voted to leave and ever since. 
I’ve been made redundant three times throughout my working life, once just months after taking on a mortgage after a longtime girlfriend told me she was pregnant. Was I concerned? Damn right I was! 😀

But we change with change, and we adapt. That’s what we do; there are no alternatives. 

Bang on.

I just want to get on with it, whatever ‘it’ looks like.

I tell you what though, I am going on a dead serious drive to never buy anything french again starting with their wine.

One thing that struck me on the continent was national buying and I couldn’t work out if it was domestic cheaper pricing or solid national common sense: go to France and everyone has a Renault or a Citroen, go to Italy and it’s Lancias and Fiats all the way.

If we don’t (or won’t because of tariffs) buy European goods then we will buy them from somewhere else.

We’ve done a trade deal with Japan, the next new car I buy will be Japanese (and I’m not joking). 

[GingerCat]

8 minutes ago, Mungler said:

 

We’ve done a trade deal with Japan, the next new car I buy will be Japanese (and I’m not joking). 

And thats a good choice. The Japanese motors don't go wrong. Had loads as have parents and friends, little goes wrong without hitting a deer or other car  first. In fact the last 3 I owned for about 10 years in total (all 10+ years old) never went wrong. Ever. Nothing. Just servicing and tyres/brakes. 

[12gauge82]

23 minutes ago, Mungler said:

Bang on.

I just want to get on with it, whatever ‘it’ looks like.

I tell you what though, I am going on a dead serious drive to never buy anything french again starting with their wine.

One thing that struck me on the continent was national buying and I couldn’t work out if it was domestic cheaper pricing or solid national common sense: go to France and everyone has a Renault or a Citroen, go to Italy and it’s Lancias and Fiats all the way.

If we don’t (or won’t because of tariffs) buy European goods then we will buy them from somewhere else.

We’ve done a trade deal with Japan, the next new car I buy will be Japanese (and I’m not joking). 

Yep same, and I know many others who are doing the same, if the government plays its cards right, there is huge potential for entrepreneurs, small businesses and decent jobs being created in the medium term after a hard brexit,like I said earlier, the time for negotiations is long gone, time to walk. 

[Vince Green]

16 hours ago, Mungler said:

.

We’ve done a trade deal with Japan, the next new car I buy will be Japanese (and I’m not joking). 

We have now switched from Mercedes to Honda, so far with no regrets what so ever

[JohnfromUK]

10 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

We have now switched from Mercedes to Honda, so far with no regrets what so ever

I have had 3 Hondas; the first two were actually built in the USA ....... the first was faultless over quite a number of years and the second was also excellent. 

I then traded that one in (a two door, which didn't work well at the time with an elderly parent) for a (brand new) four door that was UK (Swindon) built - and had nothing but grief.  Recalls, rattles, failed parts (shock absorbers all round, front struts, exhausts, suspension rubbers worn out/failed at less than 12 months old and low mileage) ........ great car, good design, great engine ......... but really poor parts quality.  I understand from the dealer that most of the faulty parts were European made, particularly Spain.

I would buy a Honda again - but only if made in Japan or USA.

[Jaymo]

I’ve been looking at a new ‘vehicle’ and took a look at the Honda CR-V.

Im betting it’s Uk made as the trim rattles and is looser than Trumps lips on Twitter.

Suffice to say, won’t be buying one.

On another note, I seem to remember a quote that the EU needs us more than we do them as we import 90billion or so of goods- with WTO conditions then surely if these go up then we are all hit in the pocket.

There is a limit on what ‘home grown’ replacements we can produce.

[Cosmicblue]

The Brexit thing is getting serious - especially for anyone working in the UK for a company that sells stuff abroad/has to import stuff.   The Brexit arguments back in 2016 seemed to centre on stuff like immigration and border control and no one suggested back then that the real result would be people facing real hardship and losing their jobs - and that was without C19 to make it worse.  No we are in a fine old mess - a Tightchoke intimated further up the thread the Government will just throw in the towel and call a general election and give the stinking pile of problems to another set of incompetents. 

  

[Mighty Ruler]

18 minutes ago, Cosmicblue said:

The Brexit thing is getting serious - especially for anyone working in the UK for a company that sells stuff abroad/has to import stuff.   The Brexit arguments back in 2016 seemed to centre on stuff like immigration and border control and no one suggested back then that the real result would be people facing real hardship and losing their jobs - and that was without C19 to make it worse.  No we are in a fine old mess - a Tightchoke intimated further up the thread the Government will just throw in the towel and call a general election and give the stinking pile of problems to another set of incompetents. 

  

What are you on about? Project fear focused entirely on hardship and job losses (while at the same time predicting labour shortages due to European immigration ending).

[clangerman]

26 minutes ago, Cosmicblue said:

The Brexit thing is getting serious - especially for anyone working in the UK for a company that sells stuff abroad/has to import stuff.   The Brexit arguments back in 2016 seemed to centre on stuff like immigration and border control and no one suggested back then that the real result would be people facing real hardship and losing their jobs - and that was without C19 to make it worse.  No we are in a fine old mess - a Tightchoke intimated further up the thread the Government will just throw in the towel and call a general election and give the stinking pile of problems to another set of incompetents. 

  

if you see a huge amarda passing the eu corner shop of inflated prices shortly don’t panic it’s just the entire world arriving to sell us anything we want and buy whatever we are selling 

[Dave-G]

21 hours ago, Vince Green said:

A British fisherman has to account for his catch at the quay side but the French and Spanish fishermen don't appear to suffer the same inspection.

That might change when the EU don't have a right to check the catch.