F1

[toxo]

What are our thoughts on the Hamilton/Verstappen debacle on Sunday?

Personally I thought the stewards got it right when they placed the blame on Verstappen and handed him a 3 place grid penalty and two penalty points on his license which I thought was a let off for Verstappen and Red Bull considering the consequences.

Obviously the points, had Hamilton won, would've had a big effect on the championship standings and Verstappen and Red Bull had admitted beforehand that the track was much better suited to the Mercs.

Given that the blame was placed on Red Bull will they be liable for the considerable damage to the Mercedes car?

Will the fact that the Dutchman's car actually hit Hamilton on the head have any bearing anywhere?

And what are the thoughts on Verstappen walking away without a thought for Hamilton who was still strapped in the car?

 

 

[bigroomboy]

I think they got it about right. Merc didn't exactly get everything right to have a winning weekend either to overall they should come out ahead at the next race.

[toxo]

1 minute ago, bigroomboy said:

I think they got it about right. Merc didn't exactly get everything right to have a winning weekend either to overall they should come out ahead at the next race.

Maybe so but this sort of thing is gonna get worse if the penalties are not hard enough to stop drivers going for gaps that simply aren't there.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

29 minutes ago, toxo said:

What are our thoughts on the Hamilton/Verstappen debacle on Sunday?

Personally I thought the stewards got it right when they placed the blame on Verstappen and handed him a 3 place grid penalty and two penalty points on his license which I thought was a let off for Verstappen and Red Bull considering the consequences.

Obviously the points, had Hamilton won, would've had a big effect on the championship standings and Verstappen and Red Bull had admitted beforehand that the track was much better suited to the Mercs.

Given that the blame was placed on Red Bull will they be liable for the considerable damage to the Mercedes car?

Will the fact that the Dutchman's car actually hit Hamilton on the head have any bearing anywhere?

And what are the thoughts on Verstappen walking away without a thought for Hamilton who was still strapped in the car?

 

 

The stewards were not hard enough on Verstappen.

Expect more of this to come as Hamilton will not give in at all.

It is motor racing, no liability!

The halo device might be made a little taller in coming revisions.

Verstappen should have at least turned to offer help to Lewis, although he was busy on the radio asking for help, the team had to tell him to turn the engine off and give up.

[Agriv8]

Racing incident that has got F1 on the headlines for another race weekend- win for all involved in selling the f1 brand.

The two drivers will neither will yield so it going to be the story while racing wheel to wheel.

Max walking away is frankly disgusting and should have its own more serious penalty - time they were both brought down a peg or two and if they behave like children they will start deducting points ! but while F1 has a proper championship fight going on it will keep happening until someone get hurts !

ATB Agriv8

[Jaymo]

Disgraceful behaviour by the the Dutchman.

At the bare minimum he should have checked to see if Lewis was ok? Just because Lewis was moving and he had attempted to free his car, shouldn’t have been the assumption that he was ok!

Regarding the events leading up into the corner. From the first lap argy bargy that occurred ( when Lewis decided it’s better to back out and run wide than risk it all) then you knew that because of  the Silverstone incident, that Max would carry out a kamikaze manoeuvre at any cost.

Lewis was ahead into the first part of the chicane and took the racing line on the exit- to say he should have yielded would then mean that every driver would in the future, know that they can always take the inside line regardless of theirs cars positioning and force the other driver not to run wide, but to yield totally. Therefore diminishing the very nature of the sport that is racing. 

One thing that struck me this time in comparison to say Silverstone, was Christian Horners defence of Max. Normally his golden boy can do no wrong and he defends him extremely vocally, but not this time! Does that say something? 
 

End of the day, I’m just relieved that the one thing that was introduced that I thought looked daft ( the halo), has potentially saved a life in the sport…

PS, Max’s father isn’t an angel. Check out his court appearances for attempted murder and violence… 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2021 by Jaymo

[Vince Green]

Trouble is Hamilton is not blameless either, far from it. He was having a pretty good try at squeezing Verstappen off the track to the left and Verstappen's car actually bounced on the raised crosshatching when it happened. You can't put it all on Verstappen, Hamilton misjudged it in my opinion, there is using your elbows but when does that go too far? I don't think Hamilton is as sharp as he used to be

Also, Hamilton had just come out of the pit lane, Im not sure how far down the track it applies but there is a right of way issue there. I think it extends to the first bend? You can't impede another driver. I don't know if F1 rules are different.

Edited September 13, 2021 by Vince Green

[ShootingEgg]

17 minutes ago, Vince Green said:

Trouble is Hamilton is not blameless either, far from it. He was having a pretty good try at squeezing Verstappen off the track to the left and Verstappen's car actually bounced on the raised crosshatching when it happened. You can't put it all on Verstappen, Hamilton misjudged it in my opinion, there is using your elbows but when does that go too far? I don't think Hamilton is as sharp as he used to be

This.

Both were at fault for not giving space, as soon as Hamilton came past the white pit lane line, he moved left, alot left too. And max was almost beside him. The halo saved a life for sure. But I think both drivers could be blamed for this one. 

[elgreco]

I seem to remember Hamilton putting Verstappen in hospital not so long ago and not showing much concern at the time. 

[clangerman]

32 minutes ago, elgreco said:

I seem to remember Hamilton putting Verstappen in hospital not so long ago and not showing much concern at the time. 

hamilton in a glass house and throwing stones hilarious as if his blm rubbish before the start is not embarrassment enough 

[chrisjpainter]

It's a plague on both their houses. What I would say is Hamilton's properly lucky. The incident was no worse in cause than his stunt that ended Verstappen's race a couple of races ago. Hamilton got a 10 second penalty which had absolutely no bearing on the race as he came back and won it anyway. A 10 second penalty and a 25 point swing in his favour is a good day at the office. 

What happened yesterday was made more consequentially significant because of the sausage strips at Monza that gave the Red Bull just enough air needed to be propelled up into the air and onto Hamilton. At almost any other track that wouldn't have happened. 

Given that they were both at least partially at fault, hammering Verstappen so badly when Hamilton got off so lightly the previous time is pretty unbalanced.

 

[Jaymo]

2 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Also, Hamilton had just come out of the pit lane, Im not sure how far down the track it applies but there is a right of way issue there. I think it extends to the first bend? You can't impede another driver. I don't know if F1 rules are different.

On exit from the pit lane, there is a white line that your not able to cross ( keeps you out of the path of faster vehicles as you join and also stops you darting across and blocking the path).

There is no right of way at all, once past the end of the white line then it’s a free for all…..

1 hour ago, chrisjpainter said:

 

Given that they were both at least partially at fault, hammering Verstappen so badly when Hamilton got off so lightly the previous time is pretty unbalanced.

 

Difference is, at Silverstone, Hamilton made the move down the inside and ‘attempted’ the right turn and with no where to go collided.

Yesterday, Max tried it up the inside and had the option to do what every other driver did at that corner when they overcooked it, that was to back out and run over the strips and take the escape lane. 

2 hours ago, elgreco said:

I seem to remember Hamilton putting Verstappen in hospital not so long ago and not showing much concern at the time. 

He wasn’t stationary next to the car that he had just launched over and clearly see the damage to the Halo and airbox, as Max could see easily. 

[tonker]

Those slating Max only see what they want too. If you'd have watched without one sided glasses, You'd have seen him look toward Hamilton as he walked past, and at that point Hamilton was still trying to extricate his car from the situation by engaging different gears. Not the actions of someone who was injured.

[toxo]

There must've been two races on Sunday because the one I saw clearly showed Verstappen pull a move that was so callous, so calculated, so dangerous and so downright wrong that Red Bull are not even going to appeal.

I have no axe to grind with Verstappen except that he thinks he's a legend already and is so reckless. You'll find that it won't matter who the other driver is the next time, and there will be a next time..

[billytheghillie]

1 hour ago, tonker said:

Those slating Max only see what they want too. If you'd have watched without one sided glasses, You'd have seen him look toward Hamilton as he walked past, and at that point Hamilton was still trying to extricate his car from the situation by engaging different gears. Not the actions of someone who was injured.

+1 this, that is correct, he looked over at hamilton.

[ditchman]

puts the excitment back into F1...............bring it on i say.............remember when Schaumacher got out of his car and tried to punch someones lights out 

excellent viewing...........

[Jaymo]

26 minutes ago, ditchman said:

puts the excitment back into F1...............bring it on i say.............remember when Schaumacher got out of his car and tried to punch someones lights out 

excellent viewing...........

Max has already punched someone, Sebastian Ocon…

Micheal might have been a great driver, but some of his victories were some dubious. 

[Jaymo]

1 hour ago, tonker said:

Those slating Max only see what they want too. If you'd have watched without one sided glasses, You'd have seen him look toward Hamilton as he walked past, and at that point Hamilton was still trying to extricate his car from the situation by engaging different gears. Not the actions of someone who was injured.

Think you need to go to spec savers 🙂

As max walks past, he gives a very slight movement to the left of his head and a second one to the rear of the car.

At that point the No44 of Hamilton’s did not have any wheel rotation. To not even stop is deplorable and you know he was guilty as hell by his radio message- Max is normally extremely vocal on the radio with his expletives or protesting and yet this time he took it as just a verbal ‘shrug’.

If you follow F1, or any other sport, then your aware of the Jules Bianchi, Henry Surtees and Felipe mass’s incidents to name just three. then you don’t walk past someone who’s vehicle you have just mounted. 

[WalkedUp]

Very difficult, the gap was not there but Hamilton almost seemed excessively slow. Looks like an insurance job, crash for ~cash~

On rewatching I think Max decided that it was better to crash than cede the place. When we used to go-kart I remember my brother doing that in a race, was no way into first so just went for a gap that didn’t exist ensuring that the leading driver could choose to finish either second or second to last. He chose the latter and my brother was disqualified. My brother walked away and said ‘first or nothing’. The other driver was furious. 

Edited September 13, 2021 by WalkedUp

[Jaymo]

1 minute ago, WalkedUp said:

Very difficult, the gap was not there but Hamilton almost seemed excessively slow. Looks like an insurance job, crash for ~cash~ 🤣

Nope, it’s a Mercedes so probably cheating on their emissions!!!!!!

[cuffy]

I thought I heard max say " well , that's what happens if you don't leave a gap " .

 

 

So - let me pass or I'll ram you ? Is that the way it works ?

[zipdog]

I hate Lewis, so this pains me to say it. But he was not a fault for this crash.

Yes he was driving aggressively, but he didn’t move over until after the line, he was ahead of Verstappen when he moved over after the line, the was first into the chicane and first into the second part. 

[Jim Neal]

8 hours ago, toxo said:

Will the fact that the Dutchman's car actually hit Hamilton on the head have any bearing anywhere?

In terms of penalties applied, no.  The stewards' mission briefing is strictly to make their judgements solely based on the incident, and only the incident - their decision should not be influenced by the outcome of the incident, which explains....

5 hours ago, chrisjpainter said:

The incident was no worse in cause than his stunt that ended Verstappen's race a couple of races ago.

...according to how the stewards view events, it was worse, hence the penalties.  At Monza, Max had no track in front of him upon which to race when he arrived at the chicane but he still tried to go through it anyway.  The escape route was there but he chose not to use it.  At Silverstone, Lewis was between Max's car and a barrier and although he was very optimistic to think he could make it stick, he was at least looking at some empty race track in front of him and that was the only way he could point his car, even if it was understeering away from the apex and shutting down Max's line.

I personally think both cases should have been judged as a "racing incident" and we let them do their jobs - drive the fastest racing cars in the world to the absolute limit - without too much nannying.

6 hours ago, Vince Green said:

Trouble is Hamilton is not blameless either, far from it. He was having a pretty good try at squeezing Verstappen off the track to the left and Verstappen's car actually bounced on the raised crosshatching when it happened. You can't put it all on Verstappen

The stewards judged Max as "predominantly" to blame, thus implying there was some fault on Lewis' part.  I think, in a nutshell, their view was that Lewis had the right to take his line due to the relative positions of the two cars, he knew Max was there and closed the door... however Max had the option of backing out but chose not to, hence the collision occurred.

6 hours ago, elgreco said:

I seem to remember Hamilton putting Verstappen in hospital not so long ago and not showing much concern at the time. 

Lewis was unaware until after the podium celebrations that Max had been taken for check-ups.  When he found out, he also found out at the same time that Max was OK so really that story is a storm in a teacup.

3 hours ago, tonker said:

Those slating Max only see what they want too. If you'd have watched without one sided glasses, You'd have seen him look toward Hamilton as he walked past, and at that point Hamilton was still trying to extricate his car from the situation by engaging different gears. Not the actions of someone who was injured.

Incorrect.  Firstly, in any situation the compassionate thing to do if you've just parked your car on someone's head is to check if they're OK and try to assist them in any way you can.  Watch the clip again.  Max has already walked past Lewis' entire car before he glances backwards over his shoulder for a fraction of a second.  There is no concern showed in his body language, he is obviously in a rage and the turn of his head was, in all probability, whilst launching a volley of swear words in Lewis' direction.

Let's compare this with Vettel during qualifying at Spa.  Norris has just crashed out spectacularly in front of him and is sat stationary in the remains of his smashed up car, in the run-off with no marshalls or medical staff yet to arrive at the scene.  Seb does what any decent human being would do and pulls over next to Norris' car to check he is OK, gets the thumbs up and then continues on his way satisfied Lando's not dead or injured.  That's what a decent human being does.  Verstappen hasn't done himself any favours at Monza.

2 hours ago, ditchman said:

puts the excitment back into F1...............bring it on i say.............remember when Schaumacher got out of his car and tried to punch someones lights out 

excellent viewing...........

This season is most certainly only going to get spicier and I can see them clashing again... I bet the viewing figures are going to be the biggest for quite some time.  I'm enjoying it

Spa '98 in a wet race, Schumacher is about to lap Coulthard, who is informed of this by his team over the radio.  Unfortunately David made a bit of a whoopsie and lifted off the throttle without really moving off the racing line, the result being with very limited visibility Michael clattered into the McLaren's back left wheel, completely removing the front right wheel of the Ferrari.  Afterwards, Schumacher stormed down the pitlane to the McLaren garage, trying to swing punches at David whilst screaming "Are you trying to *****g kill me?!" but the sheer number of people involved holding him back managed to just about avoid any fisticuffs.  A classic F1 incident that will be remembered for years to come no doubt!

2 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Max has already punched someone, Sebastian Ocon…

Just being pedantic it was a couple of pushes to the chest, not a punch

 

7 minutes ago, zipdog said:

I hate Lewis, so this pains me to say it. But he was not a fault for this crash.

Yes he was driving aggressively, but he didn’t move over until after the line, he was ahead of Verstappen when he moved over after the line, the was first into the chicane and first into the second part. 

Why do you "hate" Lewis?  did he do something horrible to you personally?!!

[shaun4860]

Just to add a bit of a different spin to Max not helping Lewis.

Hamiltons celebrations on the podium at silverstone after pushing Max off the circuit and sending him to hospital were no different to what Max did.

As an aside, it shows that if you take Max and Hamilton out of the race it creates a great race.

Well done McLaren, Ricciardo and Norris.

Great result and good to see the Honeybadger smiling again 

[Rob85]

Not much of an F1 fan these days but this one tickled me.

Lewis Hamiltons new haircut