Putin announces 'military operation' in Ukraine.

[ordnance]

Quote

you only have to look how they are bound it wouldn’t hold anyone about to be shot for two secs if your taking people for fools they should at least make a effort not like they are short on bodies to stage rubbish .

So you have no evidence, I see its your opinion based on what you have seen on TV that's fine we all have them. You would obviously know more that the war correspondents etc on the ground looking at the bodies and reporting on what happened. No need for a investigation in to what happened then, the investigators can just give your a ring sorted. 

[clangerman]

20 minutes ago, ordnance said:

You would obviously know more that the war correspondents etc on the ground looking at the bodies and reporting on what happened. 

the word of a reporter taken as gospel hilarious! 

[ordnance]

26 minutes ago, clangerman said:

the word of a reporter taken as gospel hilarious! 

Its not taken as gospel, but i will take reporters on the ground view looking at the bodies over people stating with absolutely no evidence that it was staged.  I don't know what happened how could i, that's why i would not post that other people that think its possible that Russian troops executed civilian's need to go to the opticians. Maybe you should give Mr Khan a ring with you knowledge of what happened. 

 

Quote

The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Karim Khan, is opening an investigation into whether war crimes may have been committed in Ukraine.

 

Edited April 4, 2022 by ordnance

[lksopener]

I’d suggest until you’ve been on the ground and seen the horrors you keep your nonsensical opinion to yourself. 
 

I’ve spent time out in Poland helping people fleeing from Ukraine. When you’ve seen mums and children with a rucksack that they had to grab in a rush to escape and nothing else, house destroyed, property gone and a life in tatters feel free to pass comment. 
 

I’ve seen children in that much shock they can’t speak.

 

There’s been a huge humanitarian effort from the polish and across Europe whilst most virtue signal from a distance over here. 
 

Remember people are people and although culture may differ we are all human. I’ve seen things I never wish to see again in my lifetime and I’m changed forever as a result.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Do all Russians talk out of there butts?

[ditchman]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Do all Russians talk out of there butts?

as i said before ...anyone remember comicle ali ?

[bostonmick]

2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Do all Russians talk out of there butts?

if putin tells them to

[bostonmick]

so if the reports of civilians being killed just because they are there women being raped and killed in front of their children who are also being kilked by the russian soldiers how could any so called civilised country who claim to follow human rights have any dealings with them when this is over.politicians from many countries expressing their horror and disgust at what appears to be taking place in ukraine but how long will it be before they are all lining up to buy gas and oil etc .the old saying applies there is more than one way to skin a cat but then russian gas and oil is the easy route for europe not to be a bit chilly.we have hundreds of years of coal and this can be mined and made cleaner along with filters/scrubbers on power station chimneys whereby it produces no harmful emissions. it would also provide employment.mrs thatcher did a great job of de manufacturing our once great country and handed it over to inferior makers from china and india etc where quality control is non existent. we will need to do something as our government will hardly be able to be the laundry for all the dirty russian cash they were washing before this attack.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

so if the reports of civilians being killed just because they are there women being raped and killed in front of their children who are also being kilked by the russian soldiers how could any so called civilised country who claim to follow human rights have any dealings with them when this is over.politicians from many countries expressing their horror and disgust at what appears to be taking place in ukraine but how long will it be before they are all lining up to buy gas and oil etc .the old saying applies there is more than one way to skin a cat but then russian gas and oil is the easy route for europe not to be a bit chilly.we have hundreds of years of coal and this can be mined and made cleaner along with filters/scrubbers on power station chimneys whereby it produces no harmful emissions. it would also provide employment.mrs thatcher did a great job of de manufacturing our once great country and handed it over to inferior makers from china and india etc where quality control is non existent. we will need to do something as our government will hardly be able to be the laundry for all the dirty russian cash they were washing before this attack.

Angela Merkel must be having nightmares!

[Rewulf]

50 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

so if the reports of civilians being killed just because they are there women being raped and killed in front of their children who are also being kilked by the russian soldiers how could any so called civilised country who claim to follow human rights have any dealings with them when this is over.

The dust had barely settled over Europe in 1945 before we were best buddies with the Germans again,.
Did no one ask the same question then ?
Within 5 years , money was being pumped in to rebuild the shattered state, and today they are an economic powerhouse.
For the UK , it took us 50 years to pay for our efforts to 'free' Europe.

Japan, again in 1945, after murdering millions , was rebuilt, and guess what ? Money pumped in..... economic powerhouse.

Its always about money, no one except plebs like you and me , care about the human cost.
Russia sits on vast petrochemical wealth, they will be most welcome at the table when this is over.

Ukraine on the other hand, is still paying its debts to the EU , totalling some 25 billion euros, on top of a similar amount to other loan providers.
Are all these weapons free ? I can see a bill for them, plus the cost of rebuilding all the destroyed infrastructure.
Ukraines GDP is   around £150 bn pa, a small amount for a nation of its size, it is woefully unprepared for the rebuilding operation ahead.
Will Ukraine get money pumped in to create an economic miracle on Russias doorstep ?
I highly doubt it.

[ordnance]

Quote

 

The dust had barely settled over Europe in 1945 before we were best buddies with the Germans again,.
Did no one ask the same question then ?
Within 5 years , money was being pumped in to rebuild the shattered state, and today they are an economic powerhouse.
For the UK , it took us 50 years to pay for our efforts to 'free' Europe.

Japan, again in 1945, after murdering millions , was rebuilt, and guess what ? Money pumped in..... economic powerhouse. Its always about money, no one except plebs like you and me , care about the human cost.
Russia sits on vast petrochemical wealth, they will be most welcome at the table when this is over.

 

It was not the same Germany or Japan the allies were dealing with after the war, Hitler and the third rich were gone. If its all about money the UK didn't do very well out of WW2 it virtually bankrupt the country, but it had to fight to survive no matter what the cost just like Ukraine.  As for Russia if the war ends tomorrow all sanctions should be kept in place until it pays financially for the reconstruction of Ukraine. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by ordnance

[Rewulf]

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

It was not the same Germany or Japan the allies were dealing with after the war

How do you work that out, the people who committed the atrocities, by and large, got away with it? 

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

If its all about money the UK didn't do very well out of WW2

As I said. 

US arms companies, did very well out of it, so much so, they could barely wait for the next conflict. 

A pattern emerges. 

2 hours ago, ordnance said:

As for Russia if the war ends tomorrow all sanctions should be kept in place until it pays financially for the reconstruction of Ukraine

I wouldn't hold your breath on that one. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Hello, it brings it home when you see a photo of a child standing next to his mother's grave, ?? 

[old man]

18 hours ago, bostonmick said:

so if the reports of civilians being killed just because they are there women being raped and killed in front of their children who are also being kilked by the russian soldiers how could any so called civilised country who claim to follow human rights have any dealings with them when this is over.politicians from many countries expressing their horror and disgust at what appears to be taking place in ukraine but how long will it be before they are all lining up to buy gas and oil etc .the old saying applies there is more than one way to skin a cat but then russian gas and oil is the easy route for europe not to be a bit chilly.we have hundreds of years of coal and this can be mined and made cleaner along with filters/scrubbers on power station chimneys whereby it produces no harmful emissions. it would also provide employment.mrs thatcher did a great job of de manufacturing our once great country and handed it over to inferior makers from china and india etc where quality control is non existent. we will need to do something as our government will hardly be able to be the laundry for all the dirty russian cash they were washing before this attack.

Much too astute is you!

[Scully]

9 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Hello, it brings it home when you see a photo of a child standing next to his mother's grave, ?? 

The really really sad thing about that though, is that it doesn’t really. We’ll all shake our heads at seeing the images, just as we did on seeing that refugee toddler bobbing up and down, face down in the surf on the south coast of the UK a few years ago, and say how awful it is, before waiting for the weather report to see if we’re going to get rained on tomorrow, and then five minutes later it’s like it never happened. 
I’ll just leave this here: 

[ShootingEgg]

38 minutes ago, Scully said:

I’ll just leave this here: 

It's worrying that this is pretty on point... 

I think the main issue we have is that alot of what we are getting over the Chanel etc are not genuine, I'm not saying all but most are just trying to get here to benefit from the system here, as for some reason it's some kind of magic land ....

[ordnance]

Quote

 

As I said. 

US arms companies, did very well out of it, so much so, they could barely wait for the next conflict. 

A pattern emerges. 

 

You said its all about the money, you said nothing about US arms companies. 

 

[Rewulf]

12 hours ago, ordnance said:

You said its all about the money, you said nothing about US arms companies. 

 

What on earth are you talking about? The two are intrinsically linked!

The. US government, via its embassy in Kiev, pumped a million dollars a day into the maidan protests, within weeks the protestors, including the fascist groups we are told don't exist, were armed to the teeth. FACT. 

US arms companies sponsor American politicians to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars a year, they BUILD  governments, to dance to their tune, biden being a perfect example. FACT. 

The Ukrainians are caught in the middle of a proxy war between the US  and Russia. 

If you can't see that simple fact, or you can't absorb anything that doesn't come out of a BBC newsreaders mouth, I won't waste my time further. 

 

[Old Boggy]

If only !!

[oowee]

3 hours ago, Rewulf said:

. 

The Ukrainians are caught in the middle of a proxy war between the US  and Russia. 

 

 

The Ukrinians are in a war with Russia. Fact

The West have chosen to back Ukraine of which the US is a part. We have to win China is next.

What will happen when heavy weapons arrive for Ukraine and they are used to flatten cities. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by oowee

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

The Ukrinians are in a war with Russia. Fact

The West have chosen to back Ukraine of which the US is a part. We have to win China is next.

There is no doubt they are at war, but are you denying its a proxy war ?

10 years ago , when analysts described Syria as a proxy war, between the Russian backed Assad government, and the western backed err, 'rebels' , which included anti western groups like al quaeda and al nusra among others, later ISIS, people laughed and called them conspiracy theorists.
Even as the American made TOW missiles , decimated Syrian tanks, there were still howls of laughter that the US had anything to do with it at all.
Even when the 1 million strong Iraqi army , fully equipped with US armour, planes and tech, with American 'advisors' , basically stood down in the face of around 50,000 IS fanatics, armed with AK s and a Quoran, they still didnt get what was happening.
These days , its an accepted part of our vocabulary , and no one is bothered about its negative connotations, its just 'what we do'
As in , meddle in other countries affairs , destabilise them , and actively pursue regime change to what suits our benefit.
We do it politically , economically, and eventually militarily, there is no secret about it anymore.
The US has spent billions of dollars in Ukraine 'promoting democracy' prior to 2014.
After its successful mission to change the regime, it spent billions more creating anti Russian sentiment, and boosting the Ukrainian military for the not unexpected Russian response to this.

Ask yourself, if the west had nothing to do with Maidan, or regime change, would it still be interested in backing Ukraine against Russia ?
If Putin was only interested in a territory gain, why didnt he just roll in in 2014 , the country was in disarray , none of the 10s of 1000s of western anti tank and anti air missiles to counter ?
How long would Ukraine last without all that western backing ?

The US has invested heavily in creating a Ukrainian state that will be a thorn in the side of Russia for many years.
They are not at all bothered what happens to the people, or the destruction of the land and infrastructure.
The essence of proxy war.
 

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

There is no doubt they are at war, but are you denying its a proxy war ?

10 years ago , when analysts described Syria as a proxy war, between the Russian backed Assad government, and the western backed err, 'rebels' , which included anti western groups like al quaeda and al nusra among others, later ISIS, people laughed and called them conspiracy theorists.
Even as the American made TOW missiles , decimated Syrian tanks, there were still howls of laughter that the US had anything to do with it at all.
Even when the 1 million strong Iraqi army , fully equipped with US armour, planes and tech, with American 'advisors' , basically stood down in the face of around 50,000 IS fanatics, armed with AK s and a Quoran, they still didnt get what was happening.
These days , its an accepted part of our vocabulary , and no one is bothered about its negative connotations, its just 'what we do'
As in , meddle in other countries affairs , destabilise them , and actively pursue regime change to what suits our benefit.
We do it politically , economically, and eventually militarily, there is no secret about it anymore.
The US has spent billions of dollars in Ukraine 'promoting democracy' prior to 2014.
After its successful mission to change the regime, it spent billions more creating anti Russian sentiment, and boosting the Ukrainian military for the not unexpected Russian response to this.

Ask yourself, if the west had nothing to do with Maidan, or regime change, would it still be interested in backing Ukraine against Russia ?
If Putin was only interested in a territory gain, why didnt he just roll in in 2014 , the country was in disarray , none of the 10s of 1000s of western anti tank and anti air missiles to counter ?
How long would Ukraine last without all that western backing ?

The US has invested heavily in creating a Ukrainian state that will be a thorn in the side of Russia for many years.
They are not at all bothered what happens to the people, or the destruction of the land and infrastructure.
The essence of proxy war.
 

It is America's duty to free people everywhere to resist totalitarianism. (Pres Truman) Equally each and every group  promotes it's beliefs to others, Its human nature. This is as true of Russia as it is of the west. The war has been coming since 2000 but its instigation lies with Russia as it seeks to reassert itself as a global player (Putins words). Undoubtedly the west has much to gain from the success of Ukraine but the victim of the aggression is Ukraine.

It's also true that the west has made great strides to integrate Russia into the wests value based system of freedoms (same with Ukraine) but the very structure of the formation of power, post Gorbachev, has hampered and disabled the country from the start. 

The Proxy war if there is one is simply a power play by Putin to maintain his seat in the Kremlin. Unfortunately for him the West has chosen to resist his aggression. 

You have to decide if you are on the side of repression or freedom and then make your play accordingly.

[Rewulf]

17 minutes ago, oowee said:

It is America's duty to free people everywhere to resist totalitarianism.

That is a joke right ?

18 minutes ago, oowee said:

Equally each and every group  promotes it's beliefs to others, Its human nature. This is as true of Russia as it is of the west.

OK , we know the American/western 'way' is to promote peace, love, freedom and democracy, and we know this , because they have proved it with the trail of dead and broken countries, with millions dead they have left behind.

Can you give me an example of Russian beliefs ?*

22 minutes ago, oowee said:

Undoubtedly the west has much to gain from the success of Ukraine but the victim of the aggression is Ukraine.

What has the west to gain from Ukraines success ?
Besides of course , using it as anvil for Russias hammer to break against ?

 

24 minutes ago, oowee said:

It's also true that the west has made great strides to integrate Russia into the wests value based system of freedoms (same with Ukraine) but the very structure of the formation of power, post Gorbachev, has hampered and disabled the country from the start. 

I cant agree, the west has not helped Russia integrate, it may have promised to , but even espousing democracy and capitalism has not been enough Americanisation for them.
The problem IMHO , is the oil and gas , if Russia were an economic basket case, the west could just ignore it and wait for it to implode , and then move in to 'stabilise' it.
There just isnt room in the world for another oil power, and the EU buying Russian gas has long been a bone f contention with the US.

 

29 minutes ago, oowee said:

The Proxy war if there is one is simply a power play by Putin to maintain his seat in the Kremlin. Unfortunately for him the West has chosen to resist his aggression. 

I see you still struggle with the concept, yet then you finish the sentence saying its the west who are resisting him?
I thought that Ukraine was fighting Russia ?

The Russo-Ukrainian war is listed in Wikipedia , as an 'ongoing proxy war'

*Heres a few quotes, try and guess who made them.

'History proves that all dictatorships, all authoritarian forms of government are transient. Only democratic systems are not transient. Whatever the shortcomings, mankind has not devised anything superior.'

'Nobody and nothing will stop Russia on the road to strengthening democracy and ensuring human rights and freedoms.'

'I see that not everyone in the West has understood that the Soviet Union has disappeared from the political map of the world and that a new country has emerged with new humanist and ideological principles at the foundation of its existence.'

 

[oowee]

35 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

That is a joke right ?

 

President Truman quote. 

Statement to Congress in March 1947 that it was America’s duty to help free peoples everywhere to resist totalitarianism

[TIGHTCHOKE]

An interesting read by Stephen Booth who is Head of the Britain in the World Project at Policy Exchange.

 

In the 1990s, Mark Eyskens, then Belgium’s foreign minister, described the EU as an economic giant, a political dwarf, and a military worm. This depiction has since been invoked in dozens of articles and speeches about EU foreign and security policy.

The unprecedented speed and scale of the EU’s response to the Russian invasion of Ukraine therefore displayed a surprising degree of unity and capacity to act, from what was admittedly a rather low base. The EU agreed to provide Ukraine with €450 million worth of weapons, and joined the US and the UK in imposing significant economic sanctions on the Russian financial system. Josep Borrell, the EU’s High Representative for Foreign and Security Policy, described it as the EU’s “geopolitical awakening”.

Maintaining a unified EU response will be increasingly difficult as the crisis goes on and tougher decisions are called for. For example, this week, the EU agreed sanctions on Russian coal and shipping but was unable to extend this to oil, amid resistance from large energy importers such as Germany.

And while some in Brussels might hail the response as giving fresh impetus to the concepts of “European sovereignty” and “strategic autonomy”, in many ways the crisis has only underlined and intensified the EU’s reliance on the US and NATO.

The first references to the concept of EU “strategic autonomy” date back nearly a decadem but Emmanuel Macron has sought to put the idea at the heart of French and European foreign policy since assuming office. He first drew on this theme early in his presidency in a 2017 speech at the Sorbonne as a response to what he described as “gradual and inevitable disengagement by the United States”.

While pitched as a “complement” to NATO and the transatlantic alliance, Macron was clear that the concept meant equipping the EU with the tools to take decisions and action independently based on its own interests, from foreign and security policy to energy and technology. In 2019, Macron described the “brain death” of NATO.

The EU institutions in Brussels were keen to run with the theme. In 2019, the incoming Commission President, Ursula von der Leyen, promised a “geopolitical Commission”. This promise was made in response to the decline in multilateralism and growing great power rivalry between the US and China. Brexit, and the loss of one of the EU’s two major foreign policy and security players, no doubt also acted as a catalyst for the renewed emphasis on developing the EU’s geopolitical role.

However, the EU has struggled to define what strategic autonomy means in practice. Economically, the French desire to create European champions clashes with the instincts of more liberal member states. Clément Beaune, France’s EU minister, said last month that the war should push the EU “to reduce our interdependence with the outside world, to create not an autocracy but a form of European independence.” Mark Rutte, Holland’s Prime Minister, has stressed the need for “open strategic autonomy”.

On security, there has been a renewed focus on increasing investment in defence capabilities, which has been accelerated by the Ukraine crisis, particularly dramatically in Germany. However, there had remained an unresolved tension between those states for whom strategic autonomy is a means of regaining political independence from Washington, and others for whom it should be avoided precisely for fear of accelerating US disengagement. The Ukraine crisis has strengthened the hand of those in the latter camp, including the Eastern and Nordic states.

Observers have noted that, on assuming the EU’s rotating presidency at the start of this year, Macron dropped the term “strategic autonomy” in favour of “European sovereignty”, precisely because the term autonomy risked becoming divisive.

The EU recently published its Strategic Compass for Security and Defence, which was supposed to be the centrepiece of the French EU presidency and a landmark signpost towards a more geopolitical EU. Based on the “first-ever comprehensive EU threat analysis”, conducted in 2020, it has been rather overtaken by events.

The Compass has been hastily updated to reflect the Ukraine war, but the major threat analysis was conducted before the Russian invasion changed the geopolitical landscape, and that threat analysis also did not anticipate the risk of Russian military action. Notably, US and UK intelligence warnings of an imminent Russian attack proved to be correct, whereas French and German agencies appeared unconvinced, leading to the departure of the head of French military intelligence.

One of the key proposals of the Strategic Compass is the development of an EU Rapid Deployment Capacity of up to 5,000 troops for different types of crises. However, the Ukraine crisis has only underlined that, for hard power, NATO is the only game in town. In the words of NATO’s Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg, “so all these efforts – as long as they complement NATO – we welcome them, but the EU cannot defend Europe.”

The crisis has amplified the voices of the more Atlanticist member states, particularly in Eastern Europe. Estonia has called for a larger permanent presence of NATO forces on the eastern flank to act as a stronger deterrent. Romania has also called for more troops and has pledged to increase defence spending to 2.5 per cent of GDP. Meanwhile, Poland has quietly lowered the temperature in its legal disputes with Brussels, giving it the opportunity to rekindle ties with the Biden Administration and urge the EU to do more on sanctions and support for Ukraine.

The US is also poised to play a significant role in the EU’s transition away from dependence on Russian energy. The US and the EU recently reached a deal to secure greater shipments of US liquified natural gas up to 2030 to help reduce energy dependence on Russian gas in the coming years. Von der Leyen noted that the target to import 50 billion cubic metres per year “is replacing one-third already of the Russian gas going to Europe today.”

If the horrors of the crisis in Ukraine have finally revealed the dangers and consequences of strategic ambiguity towards Putin’s Russia, European policies (in the EU and in the UK) towards China are also likely to come under increased scrutiny. During the recent EU-China summit, Xi Jinping reportedly called on the EU “to pursue an independent policy towards China,” in a thinly veiled warning to Brussels not to coordinate too closely with the US. But if China continues to support Russia, currently Europe’s gravest security threat, then greater proximity to Washington is the only likely answer.

This crisis has demonstrated the enduring power of the US. If this gives fresh momentum to Atlanticism within the EU and a greater focus on improving capabilities rather than stressing autonomy, this would be good for the West. It would also provide a more productive atmosphere for UK-EU cooperation on shared threats and challenges.