Energy Bills

[Jaymo]

9 hours ago, Weihrauch17 said:

Where did I mention labour, all 650 are a total waste of space.  It is obvious none of them have the slightest clue.   We are sat on hundreds of years worth of our own energy yet we are in an energy crisis, that alone tells you all you need to know about how effective Politicians are.  It is like having millions in the bank but having an empty fridge and starving.  The same Politicians who want to pay Farmers not to produce food in a food supply and cost of living crisis, totally and utterly incompetent.

What does UK energy producers have to do with the Government????

If it’s not/wasn’t, cost effective with the cheap import of Gas/elec, then who in their right mind would run at a loss in order to produce? 

[Weihrauch17]

40 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

What does UK energy producers have to do with the Government????

If it’s not/wasn’t, cost effective with the cheap import of Gas/elec, then who in their right mind would run at a loss in order to produce? 

It is the Governments job to have an energy policy that provides secure energy at the cheapest possible cost, they have no such policy. They destroyed power stations before they had secure alternative sources, insane.  They have caused this crisis not Russia, we have hundreds of years worth of our own energy.  I find it unbelievable that you defend them,   

[Jaymo]

17 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

It is the Governments job to have an energy policy that provides secure energy at the cheapest possible cost, they have no such policy. They destroyed power stations before they had secure alternative sources, insane.  They have caused this crisis not Russia, we have hundreds of years worth of our own energy.  I find it unbelievable that you defend them,   

Probably the same incredulity that you think the Government are responsible for every walk of our lives. 
 

They didn’t cause all of this. As series of World events such as supply and demand on the rapid opening up of the world after covid. Ukrainian invasion and an overall changing dynamics across the globe. 
So I don’t see how any single nations Governments could be expected to legislate for this. 
 

Its up to the Energy suppliers to negotiate, for they are private enterprises. We haven’t re nationalised our power generation and will not. Think of the strikes were currently experiencing and apply that to a nationalised power consortium, being blackmailed for pay rises that only further cause rises as somehow these pay rises need to be funded. It’s a never ending spiral. 
 

I would defend whichever side is in power over this. 

[Weihrauch17]

9 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Probably the same incredulity that you think the Government are responsible for every walk of our lives. 
 

They didn’t cause all of this. As series of World events such as supply and demand on the rapid opening up of the world after covid. Ukrainian invasion and an overall changing dynamics across the globe. 
So I don’t see how any single nations Governments could be expected to legislate for this. 
 

Its up to the Energy suppliers to negotiate, for they are private enterprises. We haven’t re nationalised our power generation and will not. Think of the strikes were currently experiencing and apply that to a nationalised power consortium, being blackmailed for pay rises that only further cause rises as somehow these pay rises need to be funded. It’s a never ending spiral. 
 

I would defend whichever side is in power over this. 

I don't want the Govt controlling our lives on any front, they are beyond incompetent.  But secure and affordable Energy and food provision, Law and order and a military that can defend us are their basic responsibilities.  They have failed miserably on every front.  They did cause this we have hundreds of years worth of our our own energy but they refuse to harvest it due to the insanity of Nett Zero that is impoverishing us all rapidly. They relied on wind and solar which are totally unreliable in this country 

Edited August 28, 2022 by Weihrauch17

[Dave-G]

20 minutes ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I don't want the Govt controlling our lives on any front, they are beyond incompetent.  But secure and affordable Energy and food provision, Law and order and a military that can defend us are their basic responsibilities.  They have failed miserably on every front.  They did cause this we have hundreds of years worth of our our own energy but they refuse to harvest it due to the insanity of Nett Zero that is impoverishing us all rapidly. They relied on wind and solar which are totally unreliable in this country 

The government unloaded the utilities because unions were using them to hold the country to ransom.

Perhaps you are not old enough to know of the winter of discontent.

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, Weihrauch17 said:

I don't want the Govt controlling our lives on any front, they are beyond incompetent.  But secure and affordable Energy and food provision, Law and order and a military that can defend us are their basic responsibilities.  They have failed miserably on every front.  They did cause this we have hundreds of years worth of our our own energy but they refuse to harvest it due to the insanity of Nett Zero that is impoverishing us all rapidly. They relied on wind and solar which are totally unreliable in this country 

problem here is if we still had our power stations and converted them to carbon capture......the bloody miners would go on strike ....and the power stations would end up importing the coal from poland or somewhere else at a better price ..

 

nothing is going to get any better unless

1. an alien race suddenly turn up and help us
2. The fusion reactors that are being built in France...UK....and USA.....get them to work properly....

Edited August 28, 2022 by ditchman

[Stonepark]

3 hours ago, Dave-G said:

I'm not looking forwards to the next year or two, we have my basic state pension and OH's reduced state pension coming in. luckily no mortgage payments to meet though.

Any time I try to get her indoors to cut down on how many saucepans are on with the oven its 'here we go again' time. If I try to get her to turn the gas off about a minute before the chips are done she throws a hissy, same with the kettle, she has to keep them on till the very end. I'm mansplaining when I point out the cooking oil has enough heat for another minute when nearly done and she won't accept modern kettles with hotplate type bases will keep on heating for ten seconds or so if switched off just as it comes to the boil. The look on her face...

I similarly feel your pain, our halogen ceramic cooker holds heat for at least 5 min after being turned off.

[Stonepark]

18 minutes ago, ditchman said:

1. The fusion reactors that are being built in France...UK....and USA.....get them to work properly....

 

The actual saviours are going to be either Small Modular Molten Salt Reactors, one now working in China and one being built each in USA and Canada or traditional nuclear ( Hinkley point or ER much touted SMR's).

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, Dave-G said:

The government unloaded the utilities because unions were using them to hold the country to ransom.

Perhaps you are not old enough to know of the winter of discontent.

Government set up and agreed the functioning of the current electricity and energy markets and the rules they operate by which are not free market rules but protected oligopolies.

 

Government can change those rules any time it pleases, in particular it can dictate that all UK sourced energy or electricity can only be sold at a 25% profit over the cost of production (which in reality is a huge mark up, given the 10% margins they traditionally make), but which is equivalent if 10p\kwh for electricity and 6p\kwh for gas.

We would still have to pay full European market rates for import but energy cost overall would be substantially lower in the UK.

[Jim Neal]

16 hours ago, Jaymo said:

 

Dammit I was £300 out!

 

16 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

So on those figures if I was on 2400 take home I'd have 1100,

I'd already subtracted the projected £4k average energy cost before I got to the £2.4k/month figure - that's what you'd be left with after paying your energy bill.  If £2.4k a month isn't enough for anyone to pay all their other costs of living after energy they sit well and truly in the category of "overstretched".  This is a dangerous financial position to put oneself in.

17 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

people tend to take on expenditure that matches their income

This is the absolute crux of the matter.  It's also the exact reason why I'll very likely be buying someone's repossessed house in the next year or so and turning it into another revenue stream by means of renting it out.

People don't seem to understand that they need to keep their expenditure BELOW their income stream.  Times aren't always good.

I certainly don't take home anywhere near £45k a year, and my "household" income isn't much higher than my own personal income because my mrs seems to think I run a free hotel for her enjoyment.  But I'm not anywhere near thinking it's going to sink me, it's just going to get a bit tight.  Until the repo houses start coming onto the market......

[Lloyd90]

On the one hand, the standard of living across the board has never been so high.
 

Even those in rented accommodation have indoor plumbing, electricity, modern tech, entertainment etc. 

The standard and abundance of food has never been so high. 

Any other century looking at what we have today would be amazed. 
 

 

 

On the other hand, as pointed out, it seems we have peaked and with the increased costs of food, energy and everything else, people don’t want to lower the decent standard of living they have become accustomed to.
 

Foreign holidays, modern cars on HP/finance, latest tv, technology, entertainment for the kids, mobile phones that cost thousands.
 

Not essentials but also people don’t want to give them up.  
 

 

 

With mortgage interest / rent going up, petrol costs going up, fuel prices going up, energy and general inflation, households are easily looking at an increase of £500+ per month in expenses. 
 

That‘s a decent chunk of chance. £6,000 a year spending money. 

Whilst SOME households will have the ability to ‘suck it up’ and cut back on expenditure, they will not be happy about it at all. 
 

Then we have the households who don’t have the ability to drop such an amount per month. 
 

There are movements gaining momentum about refusing to pay energy bills etc. 

 

I think people will get so miffed with it they will vote the Conservatives out, on the basis that “anyone has to be better than this current lot!”…
 

[ShootingEgg]

@Lloyd90 you are right I'd expect alot, not all on this forum have never known hard times, like our grandparents would have, I for one have been very lucky to have lived in a generation who has not seen hard times, maybe that's about to change, which is going to be a huge shock to alot of people. Like you say, cars on how, phones, the latest tech, all luxuries that we've been afforded. 

A few interesting years ahead.

[bluesj]

Just see a bit on the news about the unions getting together and calling a general so!

Do you think the Mayans, or Romans were talking like we are at the end of their empires?

[Lloyd90]

25 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

@Lloyd90 you are right I'd expect alot, not all on this forum have never known hard times, like our grandparents would have, I for one have been very lucky to have lived in a generation who has not seen hard times, maybe that's about to change, which is going to be a huge shock to alot of people. Like you say, cars on how, phones, the latest tech, all luxuries that we've been afforded. 

A few interesting years ahead.

I am already hearing of lots of tradesmen  who’ve been driving round in top of the range pick-up trucks, giving the trucks back and going back to the cheaper to run Transit van’s. 
 

People in the middle class at least have the ability to keep their newish car without getting a new one, to stop the foreign holidays, the nights out, the expenditures. 
 

 

 

The real tragedy is those on fixed incomes that are really going to suffer, and more people are going to be pushed into this bracket or RELATIVE poverty. 
 

Simply can’t see the Conservatives maintaining a government. 

[oowee]

8 hours ago, Stonepark said:

 

The actual saviours are going to be either Small Modular Molten Salt Reactors, one now working in China and one being built each in USA and Canada or traditional nuclear ( Hinkley point or ER much touted SMR's)

When we were looking at energy solutions for homes in Milton Keynes we had used ev batteries on test in homes to utilise captured solar pv. 

We looked at buried spent nuclear fuel cells which were a brilliant solution providing endless hot water. We thought the public would not accept the idea. 

8 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Government set up and agreed the functioning of the current electricity and energy markets and the rules they operate by which are not free market rules but protected oligopolies.

 

Government can change those rules any time it pleases, in particular it can dictate that all UK sourced energy or electricity can only be sold at a 25% profit over the cost of production (which in reality is a huge mark up, given the 10% margins they traditionally make), but which is equivalent if 10p\kwh for electricity and 6p\kwh for gas.

We would still have to pay full European market rates for import but energy cost overall would be substantially lower in the UK.

This ^^^^

[oldypigeonpopper]

22 hours ago, Rem260 said:

The unions are loving this. They are pushing for substantial pay increases which will cause even more inflation. They even want minimum wage to increase by 50%. Let's see how we'll that would affect small businesses. The unions only survive by creating social devision.

Hello, there are millions of hard working people who cannot go on strike to gain better pay, easy hire and fire as they do not work in an industry that would affect the vast majority of the population, that Unite man reminds me of Red Robbo 🤔

[old man]

4 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

On the one hand, the standard of living across the board has never been so high.
 

Even those in rented accommodation have indoor plumbing, electricity, modern tech, entertainment etc. 

The standard and abundance of food has never been so high. 

Any other century looking at what we have today would be amazed. 
 

 

 

On the other hand, as pointed out, it seems we have peaked and with the increased costs of food, energy and everything else, people don’t want to lower the decent standard of living they have become accustomed to.
 

Foreign holidays, modern cars on HP/finance, latest tv, technology, entertainment for the kids, mobile phones that cost thousands.
 

Not essentials but also people don’t want to give them up.  
 

 

 

With mortgage interest / rent going up, petrol costs going up, fuel prices going up, energy and general inflation, households are easily looking at an increase of £500+ per month in expenses. 
 

That‘s a decent chunk of chance. £6,000 a year spending money. 

Whilst SOME households will have the ability to ‘suck it up’ and cut back on expenditure, they will not be happy about it at all. 
 

Then we have the households who don’t have the ability to drop such an amount per month. 
 

There are movements gaining momentum about refusing to pay energy bills etc. 

 

I think people will get so miffed with it they will vote the Conservatives out, on the basis that “anyone has to be better than this current lot!”…
 

People, in my experience always vote for the lot who they perceive will do them less damage, having long ago given up on the hope of voting for someone who will improve their lot? Complex decision?

[udderlyoffroad]

2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

On the one hand, the standard of living across the board has never been so high.
 

Even those in rented accommodation have indoor plumbing, electricity, modern tech, entertainment etc. 

Sorry, total hogwash.

You need to spend more time abroad, the standard of living in this country is very low for a developed nation, and our infrastructure is only trumped in its quest for 'international embarrassment' by our healthcare system.  

Oh, and if indoor plumbing is your metric, I suggest you're firmly stuck in the 1950s, along with a sizable chunk of the PW membership! 😂

10 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Government can change those rules any time it pleases, in particular it can dictate that all UK sourced energy or electricity can only be sold at a 25% profit over the cost of production (which in reality is a huge mark up, given the 10% margins they traditionally make), but which is equivalent if 10p\kwh for electricity and 6p\kwh for gas.

We would still have to pay full European market rates for import but energy cost overall would be substantially lower in the UK.

So you'd have er...a massive disincentive to use locally generated electricity and depend to more on the cross channel link?

The root cause of this is a massive lack of domestic generation capacity coupled with an insane governmental policy.  The engineering societies and trade press have been warning about this for years, but seemingly not making anywhere near enough noise.

Make no mistake, South African style load-shedding, better known as rolling blackouts, is coming soon.  Best get used to the racket of petrol generators.  Those who can afford it, will doubtless get solar PV and a battery setup, and will essentially be immune to it.  The rest of the population will suffer, elderly will be discovered dead from hypothermia.  The standard of living never have been so high my backside.

[Vince Green]

16 hours ago, Stonepark said:

Reserves are at 75%.

However, 100% reserves are only equivalent to 20% of total yearly demand.

Use during the winter reflects almost 75% of yearly demand.

Hence reserves only reflect about 20% of demand over winter.....

Unless they get Russian gas, they (and by market links) everyone in Europe is ******¡

Support for Ukraine in Germany is falling. Its still around 70% but it hasn't started to get cold yet.

Germans are not very philanthropic when it comes to other countries. They will quickly lose interest when it starts to hurt them.

[Blackpowder]

Why on earth did western European countries allow them selves to become dependant on fuel from Russia?   

Blackpowder

[bluesj]

26 minutes ago, Blackpowder said:

Why on earth did western European countries allow them selves to become dependant on fuel from Russia?   

Blackpowder

it was cheap

[Mice!]

6 hours ago, ShootingEgg said:

@Lloyd90 you are right I'd expect alot, not all on this forum have never known hard times, like our grandparents would have, I for one have been very lucky to have lived in a generation who has not seen hard times, maybe that's about to change, which is going to be a huge shock to alot of people. Like you say, cars on how, phones, the latest tech, all luxuries that we've been afforded. 

A few interesting years ahead.

And a lot of people don't think they should have to save for things, we certainly grew up knowing you couldn't just go and buy something because the cash just wasn't there.

 

[Lloyd90]

5 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Sorry, total hogwash.

You need to spend more time abroad, the standard of living in this country is very low for a developed nation, and our infrastructure is only trumped in its quest for 'international embarrassment' by our healthcare system.  

Oh, and if indoor plumbing is your metric, I suggest you're firmly stuck in the 1950s, along with a sizable chunk of the PW membership! 😂

 

I said based against other times in history (any other century), I never mentioned compared to other nations. 
 

However, which nations have vastly superior conditions vs the U.K.? 

How is it measured? 

Whether you’d be better off elsewhere varies massively on your circumstances, job type, class etc. whether you or a dependant have any serious health conditions. 

 

I spend plenty of time abroad, have lived in Spain for a few months, travelled many other places across the world and am just coming to the end of 11 weeks touring the USA, each state is like it’s own country due to size, population, economy etc. 

 

In the USA the cost of everyday things seems a lot higher, but the salary of the middle class / professional type jobs seems a lot higher also, whilst taxes seem a lot lower (varies a lot state by state though).   
 

In the U.K. you definitely seem to be worse off in a middle class type profession money / tax wise. 

 

 

[Blackpowder]

7 hours ago, bluesj said:

it was cheap

Not now it is not.

 

Blackpowder

[oldypigeonpopper]

On 28/08/2022 at 22:31, Dave-G said:

The government unloaded the utilities because unions were using them to hold the country to ransom.

Perhaps you are not old enough to know of the winter of discontent.

Hello, I remember it well, not much difference to what's going on now with some hard lined union representatives , is this really the time to cause strikes for more money when millions do not have a choice, I would like more money on my pension to cover the soon to be energy price hikes, let alone those on £49,000 as suggested by a useless government minister