Brexit - merged threads

[Good shot?]

I would have agreed in the early stages of the negotiations but I think at this time, if you trust the negotiating skills and intentions of the Brexit team to date  we have passed the point were much can change.

Farage would have took no truck from the EU but I don't believe the EU will/would have given us what we voted for and a 'no deal' is the only other option for me.

It would have been good to have had N.Farrage and J.R Mogg at the beginning (if they could gel) a combination of tact and diplomacy and no B.S. is what was needed, along with the right intentions, which I am now sure have been absent. 

[Walker570]

5 minutes ago, Good shot? said:

I would have agreed in the early stages of the negotiations but I think at this time, if you trust the negotiating skills and intentions of the Brexit team to date  we have passed the point were much can change.

Farage would have took no truck from the EU but I don't believe the EU will/would have given us what we voted for and a 'no deal' is the only other option for me.

It would have been good to have had N.Farrage and J.R Mogg at the beginning (if they could gel) a combination of tact and diplomacy and no B.S. is what was needed, along with the right intentions, which I am now sure have been absent. 

plus 1 on that

[Walker570]

The Smiling Assasin might just be the man ...yes I mean David Davies. I believe he has done his best but has been hampered by the remainers, not in the Government but unelected advisers limked to Mrs May. He finally got fed up with it and resigned.  JRM and Boris are too useful as back benchers saying what they think out loud. Sometimes a Prime Minister can't do that, unless you have another Margaret or find a Trump card.

[Mice!]

There was a good article in Saturdays express about Margaret Thatcher, saying how she was knifed in the back by Tories wanting closer ties with Europe, she wanted to pull out after the initial trade deals were signed when Brussels wanted more power and countries were loosing there sovereignty , but had no party backing.

That's the thing now, if May jumps, or gets the push is there enough of the Tory party who want out of Europe to get it done without more in fighting??

[TriBsa]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

There was a good article in Saturdays express about Margaret Thatcher, saying how she was knifed in the back by Tories wanting closer ties with Europe, she wanted to pull out after the initial trade deals were signed when Brussels wanted more power and countries were loosing there sovereignty , but had no party backing.

That's the thing now, if May jumps, or gets the push is there enough of the Tory party who want out of Europe to get it done without more in fighting??

The wild card here is political expediency. Polling since the infamous Chequers Cabinet meeting has shown the Tories haemorrhaging support and UKIP going from life support to credible, though still small, numbers. MP's enjoy being MP's, are they going to risk throwing that away for their beliefs which are probably shallow at best when they face the electorate at the next election? They have a get out of "we are responding to the will of the people" which they can use. May's deal as it stands is farcical for both Brexiters and many Remainers.

 

 

 

[JohnfromUK]

18 minutes ago, TriBsa said:

The wild card here is political expediency.

I think you will find that the majority of Tory remainers represent constituencies (esp London area) with remain majorities, and the majority of leaver Tory MPs represent leave majority constituencies.  It is much the same for Labour as well I believe.  Unusual to have MPs representing their constituents, but I think in many cases now they are.

This gives a dilemma - because neither main party has a realistic prospect of the near 100% support that would be needed in our system for either Brexit of remain.

[markm]

Naughty naughty 

 

http://news.sky.com/story/vote-leave-referred-to-police-over-breaking-electoral-law-11439218

[Yellow Bear]

Sorry Mark but the Biased BC showed the same, however the remoaners in the "so called elite" have blocked investigation of remain and the goverenment where the largest overspend took place.   Even you have to admit that the government document sent out at taxpayers expense was remain "propaganda" .

[TIGHTCHOKE]

4 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said:

Sorry Mark but the Biased BC showed the same, however the remoaners in the "so called elite" have blocked investigation of remain and the goverenment where the largest overspend took place.   Even you have to admit that the government document sent out at taxpayers expense was remain "propaganda" .

And at a reputed £9.3 million

[Vince Green]

David Cameron's salary and that of his team during the campaign? After announcing the referendum he should have stepped back and remained completely impartial. I don't think any of his actions or comments were legal because he represented the Government. Can you imagine the rows if the Queen had pitched in? Well as Prime Minister he is appointed (technically) by the Queen.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Vince Green

[shaun4860]

And still we have MP's wanting to spend more money on another vote because they didn't get their way.

Do we really think that if the remoaners had won they would give the losers another vote just to make sure ?

No, the people have spoken....just get on with it, Germany for one would lose billions if they decided to stop trading or impose sanctions/import duties on us,

VW/Audi/BMW/Seat/Skoda/Mercedes/Porsche, just look at how many are on the roads.

[Lord Geordie]

It would be nice to see a fully transparent "and honest" account off all the money spent by the remain groups. I would think they actually spend a LOT more than leave.,

just another under the belt attempt by the remain campaign to derail or bring into repute, the leave campaign, with a singular aim to have it suspended! Then claim it was an unfair advantage, and demand the whole show be nullified. 

They will do what ever they can to stop the proceedings, and gain the nod for a second referendum.

[ditchman]

3 minutes ago, Lord Geordie said:

It would be nice to see a fully transparent "and honest" account off all the money spent by the remain groups. I would think they actually spend a LOT more than leave.,

just another under the belt attempt by the remain campaign to derail or bring into repute, the leave campaign, with a singular aim to have it suspended! Then claim it was an unfair advantage, and demand the whole show be nullified. 

They will do what ever they can to stop the proceedings, and gain the nod for a second referendum.

those words and Westminster dont really mix........it would be frightening to see them together in the same sentance......

[Rewulf]

This is interesting.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6795976/no-deal-brexit-card-is-already-on-the-table-for-theresa-may-the-widely-misunderstood-wto/

He states, as I believe, the whole customs union, Irish border 'stumbling block' are all just EU created problems to frustrate Brexit, and if possible stop or reverse it.
Its about time we ALL stopped having any vague illusions of the EU negotiating on us leaving, or trying to 'help' us reach a mutually beneficial deal.
This is simply not the case, they want us to stay, by virtual force if necessary .
This is what we are really dealing with.

[12gauge82]

I'd be stupid not to admit that there were lies and untruths on both sides of the argument, but looking at it objectively how anyone can honestly say the leave side was worse is beyond me, it got ridiculous by the time of the referendum, the chancellor making claims of doom and gloom, house prices will drop overnight, predictions of WW3, the bank of England, Obama put up to telling us we'd be at the back of the queue, a onesided propaganda leaflet drop to every resident in the UK worth more than the entire campaign budget. I'm sure I could go on if I put my mind to it. So to single out the leave campaign is a ridiculous, especially when the leave bus is one of the remaniacs biggest touted issue, and that was technically true (although I agree it was a stretch and should have said £250 million)

[panoma1]

This is a side issue, I think the majority of people voted to leave the EU not because they were persuaded by the pro or anti propaganda......but despite it!

[AVB]

19 hours ago, Mice! said:

 

That's the thing now, if May jumps, or gets the push is there enough of the Tory party who want out of Europe to get it done without more in fighting??

The simple answer is no.  The Tory’s are split. labour are pro Europe and with Parliament having the final say on the proposal (thanks to that Gina woman) it is proving impossible for May to get any agreement. 

Because of this I fear either a General Election or another referendum. 

As much as I think May has handled it badly the split across parliament means she has no room for manoeuvre. 

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, AVB said:

 

Because of this I fear either a General Election or another referendum. 

 

Whilst a general election cannot be ruled out, it isnt really going to solve anything.
Any party that puts either a reversal of Brexit or another referendum in its manifesto, is risking the wrath of all the people who voted to leave.
It would be most surprising if such a party could win a majority.

Another referendum is just making a mockery of referendums and democracy in general.
Do we just keep having referendums till the EU gets what it wants?

I know you are not advocating either, but the MPs squabbling over the way we leave, are clearly not thinking this through properly.

We voted to leave by majority, both sides said the vote would carry through the wishes of the majority, it didnt stipulate how big a majority, or whether the 'deal' was favoured by parliament, it stated we would leave.

Now if the people running the show then turn around and say, we cant do it like that, or we arent technically leaving, like they ALL promised we would, then people are going to get pretty annoyed about it.
And the electorate is going to wonder whether its worth voting for mainstream political parties, who it would seem, cannot or will not keep their promises.
Remember what happened to the Lib Dems who promised in their manifesto to not up tuition fees ?
Wiped out.
All those 17.4 million people, could propel a proper Eurosceptic party to power, leaving Labour and the conservatives in the wasteland, maybe not in London, but nearly everywhere else.
Never happen ? 
Thats what the Italians thought.

 

[Walker570]

Spot on Rewulf.

[mick miller]

2 hours ago, AVB said:

Because of this I fear either a General Election.

we already had one, May invited it. Only one party stood on a strictly 'reverse brexit' ticket, the Lib Dems. They faded into insignificance along with UKIP which means the overwhelming majority of people who voted did so for a party that was going to carry out the result of the referendum.

2 hours ago, AVB said:

.. or another referendum.

Earliest opportunity for this? Next summer(ish), way past our deadline to leave.

I think a 'no deal' deal the likely outcome. Or, a complete reversal.

[Mice!]

7 hours ago, panoma1 said:

This is a side issue, I think the majority of people voted to leave the EU not because they were persuaded by the pro or anti propaganda......but despite it!

Yes.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Whilst a general election cannot be ruled out, it isnt really going to solve anything.
Any party that puts either a reversal of Brexit or another referendum in its manifesto, is risking the wrath of all the people who voted to leave.
It would be most surprising if such a party could win a majority.

Another referendum is just making a mockery of referendums and democracy in general.
Do we just keep having referendums till the EU gets what it wants?

I know you are not advocating either, but the MPs squabbling over the way we leave, are clearly not thinking this through properly.

We voted to leave by majority, both sides said the vote would carry through the wishes of the majority, it didnt stipulate how big a majority, or whether the 'deal' was favoured by parliament, it stated we would leave.

Now if the people running the show then turn around and say, we cant do it like that, or we arent technically leaving, like they ALL promised we would, then people are going to get pretty annoyed about it.
And the electorate is going to wonder whether its worth voting for mainstream political parties, who it would seem, cannot or will not keep their promises.
Remember what happened to the Lib Dems who promised in their manifesto to not up tuition fees ?
Wiped out.
All those 17.4 million people, could propel a proper Eurosceptic party to power, leaving Labour and the conservatives in the wasteland, maybe not in London, but nearly everywhere else.
Never happen ? 
Thats what the Italians thought.

 

And yes again

[mick miller]

I find it ironic that agitation by the remain side will result in the worst of all outcomes. Well done Gina Miller et al.

[oowee]

15 minutes ago, mick miller said:

I find it ironic that agitation by the remain side will result in the worst of all outcomes. Well done Gina Miller et al.

?that is ironic ?

[Yellow Bear]

30 minutes ago, mick miller said:

I find it ironic that agitation by the remain side will result in the worst of all outcomes. Well done Gina Miller et al.

Not really - they lost so their attitude is if we can't win it will be bad for all, pure spite.

[old man]

I see according to the news tonight that the upright individual who signed us up to the corruption that is the E U has again raised his head, shame on him.