BREXIT

[Scully]

25 minutes ago, oowee said:

 

There will no doubt be a lot of disappointed people at some point when we get a deal or alternatively remain. 

No doubt, and that may be reflected in the GE voting. 

[Retsdon]

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/12/28/14088992/brain-study-change-minds

Here's an interesting article on why people generally are so averse to moving their political perspective. No matter how much we might imagine otherwise, perhaps we're all subject to this phenomenon

[Dave-G]

10 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/12/28/14088992/brain-study-change-minds

Here's an interesting article on why people generally are so averse to moving their political perspective. No matter how much we might imagine otherwise, perhaps we're all subject to this phenomenon

Very interesting - who'd have thunk it? pardon the expression.

Good for you for staying despite us have differing firm opinions on Brexit.

[oowee]

That's interesting I wonder if that explains the defensive and diversionary tactics you see on here when people point out the facts that challenge those convictions? Not just with politics.

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

That's interesting I wonder if that explains the defensive and diversionary tactics you see on here when people point out the facts that challenge those convictions? Not just with politics.

I do hope you're referring to yourself as much as you're referring to the Brexiteers 😂

[Raja Clavata]

I found this quite an interesting article, doesn’t quite sound like the 4th Reich to me...

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2019/10/personal-story-why-i-decided-claim-german-citizenship

 

[henry d]

2 hours ago, Retsdon said:

https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2016/12/28/14088992/brain-study-change-minds

Here's an interesting article on why people generally are so averse to moving their political perspective. No matter how much we might imagine otherwise, perhaps we're all subject to this phenomenon

Mine has changed dramatically, it also says near the end that it isn't hardwired. Just need to open up new neural networks and let the old paths get overgrown.

[Gordon R]

Limited study indeed. What a load of tosh.

[Good shot?]

This initial withdrawal agreement is the first and most important part that we should forego IMO because this sets the tone of future negotiations far too much in the EU favour as it has been written 99.9% by them to give them the outcome they want and with no room for any worthwhile result for the UK.

[Retsdon]

1 hour ago, henry d said:

Mine has changed dramatically,

Mine too. 

[Retsdon]

8 minutes ago, Good shot? said:

This initial withdrawal agreement is the first and most important part that we should forego IMO because this sets the tone of future negotiations far too much in the EU favour as it has been written 99.9% by them to give them the outcome they want and with no room for any worthwhile result for the UK.

But the withdrawal agreement is really nothing more than the seating arrangements for when the real talks start. Not that the seating will influence the outcome one iota. Future negotiations favour the EU because, surprise surprise, when it comes to trade negotiation the EU holds the whip hand  - and that's the reality of Brexit.

Is that fair? Quite possibly not. But nobody cares. That's just how it is.
 

[oowee]

32 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

But the withdrawal agreement is really nothing more than the seating arrangements for when the real talks start. Not that the seating will influence the outcome one iota. Future negotiations favour the EU because, surprise surprise, when it comes to trade negotiation the EU holds the whip hand  - and that's the reality of Brexit.

Is that fair? Quite possibly not. But nobody cares. That's just how it is.
 

They probably have the best trade negotiating teams on the planet. The clearest strategy and the greatest clarity of proposition. Formidable. 

Who do we have? Sorry I keep forgetting they have been sacked or resigned. 

[ditchman]

im havi a free rang chucken tunite wiv cabbarge and smell pots with a nive gravy amnd go to bed hapy

[Walker570]

13 minutes ago, ditchman said:

im havi a free rang chucken tunite wiv cabbarge and smell pots with a nive gravy amnd go to bed hapy

Not disimilla ditchie old boy, oive just sliced some pheasant breasts into 1/4 inch slices and they are merinating in all sorts of dizgusting stuf. Will flip them in a buttered skillet later and the good lady 'as prepared some spuds, sliced ..red and green peppers, sliced, some onions sliced and placed in a trivet with some grated cheese all in the oven to 'roost'gently.  Have friends from local village store cumming to share so pretty certain they will turn up wit' necessary liquid to wash it all doon.    Hope you enjoy yours as much.  

Carnt embibe to greatly as I have to be on the road in the morrow early to Lincolnshire to hopefullly shoot a few perdix of the french persuasion

Edited October 27, 2019 by Walker570

[ditchman]

Stuffed Bexit..........yum yum.........

[Walker570]

Breskit ..aint that up the front underside of an old cow?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

An interesting article from Paul Goodman;

Why the turmoil over at the People’s Vote campaign, where two senior personnel have been fired?

The answer lies in the three main structural weaknesses present in the campaign from its very start – as it emerged from Britain Stronger in Europe, the losing Remain referendum campaign.

The first is forward-facing.  Why should a second plebiscite on UK EU membership settle the matter one way or the other?  What happens if a vote goes, say, 51-49 either way?  Must we then have a third referendum for clarity?  Best of five?

The second looks backwards.  Officially, the People’s Vote campaign is aligned neither to Leave nor Remain supporters.  Unofficially, the very dogs in the street know that it is made up almost entirely of Remainers.  They want to re-contest a referendum they lost.  It is as though New Zealand were demanding a re-run of Saturday’s World Cup semi-final.

The third springs from the second.  The campaign has failed to attract the support of a single Leaver of any real note.  Indeed, its most visible spokesman has been Tony Blair.  It is as if the campaign had become a vehicle to help him redeem his reputation and popularity, lost after the Iraq War.

And all that comes before asking the People’s Vote crew the knotty questions that they can’t answer, such as: what’s the question?  Or: what’s the franchise?

The success of Keir Starmer and London Labour in pushing the cause within their party, and wringing concessions over time from Jeremy Corbyn, has helped to mask these fundamental difficulties.  But the problems with the campaign have been evident for a while.  Its backers in the Commons haven’t dared bring it back for recent vote.

In April, it fell by 280 votes to 292 in an indicative vote.  But that figure is flattering to the People’s Vote campaigners: the Conservative front bench abstained.  So there are many more MPs hostile to the project in Parliament.

And now there is a new obstacle to the second referendum cause.  It might reasonably be expected to fill a Parliamentary vacuum, especially in the event of a three month extension (which now seems likely to be given). But that gap is being filled by Boris Johnson’s new deal – and the Withdrawal Agreement Bill based on it that gained Second Reading last week.

Increasingly, public opinion has polarised.  One is either for Brexit, and prepared ultimately to embrace No Deal; or against it, in which case one looks to Revoke.  There is thus a logic to the Liberal Democrats’ “******** to Brexit” campaign: they know their target audience.

Indeed, the joint LibDem / SNP push for an election shows both parties giving up on a second referendum, for which there’s no Commons majority, and going for a general election, for which there might be.

Johnson must now decide how to respond.  But either way, the prospect of a People’s Vote has receded.

[Stonepark]

EU has approved extension request but..... With a non- negotiaton clause on the Withdrawal Agreement in the future so Labour etc are stuck with Boris's deal going forward ... Boris will have to seek parliments approval to accept this due to the change in terms... If parliment rejects this, we are out on the 31st.

[Mice!]

18 hours ago, Retsdon said:

But the withdrawal agreement is really nothing more than the seating arrangements for when the real talks start. Not that the seating will influence the outcome one iota. Future negotiations favour the EU because, surprise surprise, when it comes to trade negotiation the EU holds the whip hand  - and that's the reality of Brexit.

Is that fair? Quite possibly not. But nobody cares. That's just how it is.
 

Sounds spot on to me, we want to be in charge of our own laws, currency taxes bla bla bla....

When the real negotiations begin the EU is obviously bigger than us, but we can deal with whoever we like, and i still think others will follow.

Too many members of the EU that take but don't benefit the club.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

22 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

EU has approved extension request but..... With a non- negotiaton clause on the Withdrawal Agreement in the future so Labour etc are stuck with Boris's deal going forward ... Boris will have to seek parliments approval to accept this due to the change in terms... If parliment rejects this, we are out on the 31st.

Potentially great news for those of us that live in the REAL world!

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Potentially great news for those of us that live in the REAL world!

INDEED, but very sneaky move on the part of the EU.... 

[panoma1]

30 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

EU has approved extension request but..... With a non- negotiaton clause on the Withdrawal Agreement in the future so Labour etc are stuck with Boris's deal going forward ... Boris will have to seek parliments approval to accept this due to the change in terms... If parliment rejects this, we are out on the 31st.

Is that correct, the extension offer has to go back to Parliament, presumably for another vote? Because it contains a change of terms? Can you provide a link?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

The BBC are saying it has to be considered and voted upon in parliament.

[Stonepark]

From Le Monde

After some hesitation, especially in the French camp, the Europeans ended up accepting, Monday, October 28, a compromise for a shift of Brexit to January 31, 2020. A shift "flexible": the United Kingdom may leave the European Union (EU) sooner if he is ready, and if the Johnson government succeeds in finally getting the British Parliament to adopt the implementing law in the national law of its agreement with Brussels. In a Tweet on Monday morning, Donald Tusk, the President of the European Council, confirmed the information definitively: "The Twenty-Seven have accepted the British request for a postponement of the flexible Brexit to 31 January 2020. The decision must be formalized by written procedure [without the need for a special EU summit]. France remained until now very reluctant to face the prospect of this third postponement, this time of three months, in the absence of any assurance that, on the British side, this period of time would be used "usefully" - to organize by example of general elections. A decision should have been taken Friday, October 25 in Brussels, but Paris demanded to wait for the result of the vote in the House of Commons, Monday night, on possible early elections on December 12. Read also Brexit: Boris Johnson tries to trigger early elections A compromise was finally reached this weekend, after, in particular, a phone call between Emmanuel Macron and Boris Johnson. And "the multiplication of calls for elections in London," says a French source in Le Monde. It must be said that a European decision was urgent, three days of Brexit "by default", still scheduled for October 31. France had absolutely no desire, by a possible veto, to precipitate the whole Union in this type of unknown. Guarantees It's about "preserving the unity at 27", adds this hexagonal source. Paris has obtained guarantees: the Europeans should specify black on white that there is no question of renegotiating the divorce agreement obtained with Boris Johnson mid-October. The Europeans have already spent almost a year and a half negotiating a first deal with Theresa May, which they finally agreed to reopen for her successor at Downing Street (mostly on the issue of Northern Ireland). But the patience of the leaders and diplomats is exhausted, in Brussels as in capitals, including Berlin. Europeans also insist on the need for the United Kingdom, as long as it is not out of the EU, to appoint a European Commissioner for the new Von der Leyen Commission. An obligation with no major political consequences for London: the new college of commissioners was to take office this early November, but after the rejection of three candidacies (including that of the French Sylvie Goulard) by the European Parliament, it will not be ready before, at best, December 1st. Article reserved for our subscribers Read also Brexit: Boris Johnson's blackmail in the elections to break the deadlock Will this decision by the Twenty-Seven help the British get out of the political deadlock in which they find themselves? The first response is tonight, with a likely vote in the House of Commons on early general elections in December. Boris Johnson will try to pass a motion for a poll December 12. That would leave the members (and the Lords) another big week, by November 6, to continue to review, and possibly finally adopt, their divorce agreement. The latter got a positive vote on second reading on 22 October. Another draft law for early elections on December 9 But this motion is unlikely to be passed, the 2011 Fixed-Term Parliaments Act, calling for a two-thirds majority of Commons (434 votes) for trigger an early general election. But Labor, the second largest political force in the country, have shown no enthusiasm in recent days for such elections, polls predicting a delay in comparison with the Conservatives. Their leader, Jeremy Corbyn, insisted on this point just before the weekend: the risk of "no deal" must have completely disappeared for him to support an election in December. Article reserved for our subscribers Read also Brexit: Jeremy Corbyn avoids vote of no confidence at the Labor Congress On the other hand, the Liberals-Democrats (LibDem) and the members of the Scottish National Party (SNP) are in a hurry to get their money back. the polls lend themselves to their radical positions (the revocation of Brexit, for the former, Scottish independence for the latter). They could save the day for Johnson: Jo Swinson, the leader of LibDem, and Ian Blackford, leader of the SNP in the House of Commons, drafted a bill calling for an early election on December 9. This text circumvents the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act and only needs a simple majority in the Commons (320 votes) to be adopted. "We understand from our European contacts that [our proposal] has given them confidence: if they guarantee a Brexit deadline, the time granted will be well used," Swinson told the BBC on Monday morning. If the Prime Minister and his Conservative side support him, this bill has every chance. The only problem for Downing Street is that the Liberal Democrats are demanding that, in exchange, Johnson abandon his ambition to adopt his divorce agreement in Westminster just before the start of the election campaign.

 

[henry d]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

An interesting article from Paul Goodman;

...They want to re-contest a referendum they lost.  It is as though New Zealand were demanding a re-run of Saturday’s World Cup semi-final....

That is one of the worst arguments I have seen yet, apples and pears!