Independence for Scotland

[Newbie to this]

Maybe it's time for an English parliament.

Then have Westminster only to deal with UK wide issues.

Problem is with an English parliament, they would be in charge of taxes raised in England.

[grrclark]

6 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Maybe it's time for an English parliament.

Then have Westminster only to deal with UK wide issues.

Problem is with an English parliament, they would be in charge of taxes raised in England.

Why?  No other devolved executive have full control of locally raised taxes, why would England be different?

I would support a devolved parliament for England and a very much slimmed down UK parliament.

[Newbie to this]

28 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Why?  No other devolved executive have full control of locally raised taxes, why would England be different?

I would support a devolved parliament for England and a very much slimmed down UK parliament.

OK, maybe not full control, but a lot more control. (as currently it's non-existent)

I fully agree it's way beyond time that England had a devolved parliament.  Either that or all devolved powers come back under one roof.

But I fear if either happen then the union will quickly disappear.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Newbie to this

[mick miller]

Oh God, is it this time again? The topic is rather like an irritating pile; a groaning irritation every few months or so.

[ditchman]

1 hour ago, mick miller said:

Oh God, is it this time again? The topic is rather like an irritating pile; a groaning irritation every few months or so.

blame tonker...he started this one this time...............he lit the blue touch paper then ran for it...

[Westward]

15 hours ago, henry d said:

Exactly, read through your words and look at the similarities, whip up some nationalistic fervour and aim it at a group that can be identified as a "baddy" and you have a winner. They didn't elect the Westminster govt made of different nationalities based in a foreign country.

I don't understand your point here. The Westminster parliament comprises elected representatives from the whole UK. As with everywhere else in the UK, the number of members from Scotland is more or less in proportion to the population. Quite how that is perceived as a foreign government is beyond me.

Many years ago I lived in Scotland for a couple of years and even then the level of ignorance about (and disinterest in) any other region of the UK and the ingrained parochial attitude - particularly toward Westminster - was really quite stunning. There was an ever present undercurrent of a kind of collective paranoia that Scotland was always handed the dirty end of the stick. No one that I spoke to could ever produce any actual examples but it's being regurgitated now with the ludicrous comments about Westminster being a "foreign government".

When the referendum was coming up in 2014, I saw that paranoia taken to a whole new level of raw hostility. One commentator was even claiming that London and the south east were channelling away the national wealth to enrich themselves at Scotland's expense. How ignorant can people really be? The reality is pretty much the opposite; it's actually London's wealth generation that supports the rest of the UK. At about 10% of the population, Greater London is roughly the same size as Scotland, yet is responsible for about 30% of GDP. London is in fact the only region of the UK that contributes more to the economy than it receives back in public spending.

The truth of the matter is that Scotland does a lot better out of being in the UK than the UK does from having Scotland in it.

 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Westward

[Vince Green]

1 hour ago, Westward said:

I don't understand your point here. The Westminster parliament comprises elected representatives from the whole UK. As with everywhere else in the UK, the number of members from Scotland is more or less in proportion to the population. Quite how that is perceived as a foreign government is beyond me.

Many years ago I lived in Scotland for a couple of years and even then the level of ignorance about (and disinterest in) any other region of the UK and the ingrained parochial attitude - particularly toward Westminster - was really quite stunning. There was an ever present undercurrent of a kind of collective paranoia that Scotland was always handed the dirty end of the stick. No one that I spoke to could ever produce any actual examples but it's being regurgitated now with the ludicrous comments about Westminster being a "foreign government".

When the referendum was coming up in 2014, I saw that paranoia taken to a whole new level of raw hostility. One commentator was even claiming that London and the south east were channelling away the national wealth to enrich themselves at Scotland's expense. How ignorant can people really be? The reality is pretty much the opposite; it's actually London's wealth generation that supports the rest of the UK. At about 10% of the population, Greater London is roughly the same size as Scotland, yet is responsible for about 30% of GDP. London is in fact the only region of the UK that contributes more to the economy than it receives back in public spending.

The truth of the matter is that Scotland does a lot better out of being in the UK than the UK does from having Scotland in it.

 

Good post, and very true

[Penelope]

18 hours ago, ditchman said:

it has been said the sturgeon wants to return the empty tracts of land back to the people of scotland for crofting...........

But how will they deep fry their mar bars, oil heated from peat digging?

[henry d]

1 hour ago, Westward said:

I don't understand your point here. The Westminster parliament comprises elected representatives from the whole UK. As with everywhere else in the UK, the number of members from Scotland is more or less in proportion to the population. Quite how that is perceived as a foreign government is beyond me.

Many years ago I lived in Scotland for a couple of years and even then the level of ignorance about (and disinterest in) any other region of the UK and the ingrained parochial attitude - particularly toward Westminster - was really quite stunning. There was an ever present undercurrent of a kind of collective paranoia that Scotland was always handed the dirty end of the stick. No one that I spoke to could ever produce any actual examples but it's being regurgitated now with the ludicrous comments about Westminster being a "foreign government".

When the referendum was coming up in 2014, I saw that paranoia taken to a whole new level of raw hostility. One commentator was even claiming that London and the south east were channelling away the national wealth to enrich themselves at Scotland's expense. How ignorant can people really be? The reality is pretty much the opposite; it's actually London's wealth generation that supports the rest of the UK. At about 10% of the population, Greater London is roughly the same size as Scotland, yet is responsible for about 30% of GDP. London is in fact the only region of the UK that contributes more to the economy than it receives back in public spending.

The truth of the matter is that Scotland does a lot better out of being in the UK than the UK does from having Scotland in it.

 

But that is what they are being fed, it makes no difference if it can be proven whether Scotland is paying more or less into the coffers it is how it is perceived.

[ditchman]

32 minutes ago, Penelope said:

But how will they deep fry their mar bars, oil heated from peat digging?

that is a none starter it would be ecologically devestating........

[grrclark]

On 15/01/2020 at 10:53, Westward said:

I don't understand your point here. The Westminster parliament comprises elected representatives from the whole UK. As with everywhere else in the UK, the number of members from Scotland is more or less in proportion to the population. Quite how that is perceived as a foreign government is beyond me.

Many years ago I lived in Scotland for a couple of years and even then the level of ignorance about (and disinterest in) any other region of the UK and the ingrained parochial attitude - particularly toward Westminster - was really quite stunning. There was an ever present undercurrent of a kind of collective paranoia that Scotland was always handed the dirty end of the stick. No one that I spoke to could ever produce any actual examples but it's being regurgitated now with the ludicrous comments about Westminster being a "foreign government".

When the referendum was coming up in 2014, I saw that paranoia taken to a whole new level of raw hostility. One commentator was even claiming that London and the south east were channelling away the national wealth to enrich themselves at Scotland's expense. How ignorant can people really be? The reality is pretty much the opposite; it's actually London's wealth generation that supports the rest of the UK. At about 10% of the population, Greater London is roughly the same size as Scotland, yet is responsible for about 30% of GDP. London is in fact the only region of the UK that contributes more to the economy than it receives back in public spending.

The truth of the matter is that Scotland does a lot better out of being in the UK than the UK does from having Scotland in it.

 

Not going to argue with your thoughts on the absolutely misguided sense of hurt and stinking attitude by so many nationalists, but the bit that’s in bold above, can you quantify that?

It is the typical sort of statement that is presented as fact on the basis of a really small percentage of information presented, mostly the Barnett formula that i would be amazed if most commentators here could actually articulate.

How does your statement of “truth” consider things like the balance of trade and net cashflow contribution to the UK current account?  If you spend a bit of time looking beyond the emotive headlines from either camp you will discover that it is a very complex picture and Scotland is a significant contributor to how UK plc does business and things like the interest rate on national borrowing and the yield that we can offer on government bonds and promissory notes.

Sadly most of that flies way above the emotional argument that the vast majority will ever consider.

If there was to be Scottish secession from the UK then both Scotland and rUK would suffer 

[oowee]

13 minutes ago, grrclark said:

If there was to be Scottish secession from the UK then both Scotland and rUK would suffer 

^^^^^ This. We are so much better together. 

[markm]

I’ve waded into this argument many time. Live in Northumberland, have a Scottish wife, spend a lot of time with her family in Scotland. 
 

As far as I’m concerned they are free to leave (with the deal that suits England / Wales / NI, not on SNP terms). BUT - if it does go teets up, Scotland comes back with it’s tail between it’s legs, under different rules,” (eg - increased taxes)  with no Scottish government (glorified councillors). 
 

Who paid for Holyrood by the way?

Edited January 16, 2020 by markm

[Gordon R]

Quote

If there was to be Scottish secession from the UK then both Scotland and rUK would suffer 

Totally agree and I hope it never happens. Great people who deserve better leaders.

[ditchman]

59 minutes ago, markm said:

I’ve waded into this argument many time. Live in Northumberland, have a Scottish wife, spend a lot of time with her family in Scotland. 
 

As far as I’m concerned they are free to leave (with the deal that suits England / Wales / NI, not on SNP terms). BUT - if it does go teets up, Scotland comes back with it’s tail between it’s legs, under different rules,” (eg - increased taxes)  with no Scottish government (glorified councillors). 
 

Who paid for Holyrood by the way?

then the english would have a referendum as to wether they wanted them back...........

[humperdingle]

Only 45% of voters in Scotland voted for SNP in 2019 general election.

 

This means that 55% DID NOT.

 

Strangely enough, the same percentages as the 2014 referendum

 

Scotland won’t vote to become an independent country

Edited January 16, 2020 by humperdingle

[wigeon jim]

Will I have shooting rights on my croft,😀  Jim.

[ditchman]

14 minutes ago, wigeon jim said:

Will I have shooting rights on my croft,😀  Jim.

how much tax are you prepared to pay ?...................stuff yer croft mate....you sensible ones are always welcome down here 

[retromlc]

I'd be happy if the Scot's, Welsh and Irish left, it's like have 3 whining kids who spend their whole time trying to poison you, let them and their history prejudices be gone

[Rewulf]

24 minutes ago, retromlc said:

I'd be happy if the Scot's, Welsh and Irish left, it's like have 3 whining kids who spend their whole time trying to poison you, let them and their history prejudices be gone

Really? 

I'm what I would call English, but I'm not daft enough to think my ancestry doesn't include some, or all of these 'foreigners' you mention! 

What makes a person Welsh, or Scottish? Because they live there? Have an accent? 

I know someone who moved to Oz 10 years ago, and now has an Ozzie accent, is she Australian? Legally yes, because she has citizenship, but is she really? 

If I move to Wales, will I become a Welsh man, and become one of these whiny kids? 

Live and let live, not all nationalists want to build walls around themselves, and curse their neighbours from the ramparts😂

[panoma1]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Really? 

I'm what I would call English, but I'm not daft enough to think my ancestry doesn't include some, or all of these 'foreigners' you mention! 

What makes a person Welsh, or Scottish? Because they live there? Have an accent? 

I know someone who moved to Oz 10 years ago, and now has an Ozzie accent, is she Australian? Legally yes, because she has citizenship, but is she really? 

If I move to Wales, will I become a Welsh man, and become one of these whiny kids? 

Live and let live, not all nationalists want to build walls around themselves, and curse their neighbours from the ramparts😂

So why do the Scottish Nationalists see themselves as “different”? And want to separate from the rest of the UK! I agree we are all British! There shouldn’t be any devolved parliaments!....one UK Parliament for one UK!

[retromlc]

What you say is completely true, I don't dislike them, my 2 best friends are Scottish and Welsh, I tell them.all the time to sod off all the time , my point really is that the voice of these countries don't want to be connected to England, endlessly demand to be independent from the United Kingdom , I'm very binary, if they want out let them go.  They've had a referendum to leave, decided to stay and don't accept the democratic decision, I'm tired of them tbh. 

There's no such thing as an Englishman, we're all a blend and I'm very culturally tolerant, each to their own but their constant bleating on about leaving is annoying

Edited January 16, 2020 by retromlc

[Rewulf]

10 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

So why do the Scottish Nationalists see themselves as “different”? And want to separate from the rest of the UK! I

Do they? 

They must surely look at it from an economic perspective, do they really think they would be better off with full autonomy? Or is it just a hardcore, who have convinced a large number of Scots that they would be? 

As far as 'self rule' goes, they already have a large amount of self determination, particularly with financial stuff, so what would really be the advantage of leaving? 

14 minutes ago, retromlc said:

There's no such thing as an Englishman, we're all a blend and I'm very culturally tolerant, each to their own but their constant bleating on about leaving is annoying

Like I say, it's not a general idea that 'most' Scots or most Welsh want independence, but if you're proud of your country, region, even your town/city, you tend to listen when someone bigs up the advantages of 'your' place. 

The question pro indy Scots need to ask themselves is, in what way are they better off away from the union, what do they get that they don't get now? 

[Saltings]

 ok I have a few days  holidays in Scotland  over the last 30 yrs or more   shooting fishing stalking  on many estates black looms    glams  and others   not to mention  married relatives in inverness and surrounding areas Dingwall  blairgowery Aletha   while stopping at    lands of loyal  in Althea    stayed many  times in the last 20 yrs   cant fault   the hospitality first rate highly  recommended  first class   accommodation and hospitality        however surrounding areas          Forfar   many times     inverness        Peterhead  Perth  the few names I can remember         etc  I have enjoyed my few  weeks as a  wildfowling holiday  over the last 20  / 30 yrs  and will never do again dew to the inhospitality when you open your mouth          im Irish her indoors Coventry girl   service and hospitality goes out the door  you   do not deserve any tourist trade winter or summer  and that's from me who has close  family in the highlands as well as the lowlands   and visit regularly  with or without hunting   / shooting / fishing  I travel to inverness three / four times a year        discussed with hospitality  maybe its time  Hadrian's wall gets rebuilt sturgeon wants an independent Scotland  maybe her wish  could be granted              plenty more places to see and  more hospitable            Ireland    for a start         England      Wales Guernsey    isle of man to mention a few             If Scotland wants independence have it       the scotch are made welcome  when they visit  elsewhere why cant they do the same   it eludes me   if I am wrong after 30 years  on the receiving end prove me wrong   I will be happy to take on board your hospitality        rant   over   however this does not include the islands and never will  you are made at home straight away          part of the family  for the want of a better word 

[hod]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

 

The question pro indy Scots need to ask themselves is, in what way are they better off away from the union, what do they get that they don't get now? 

Self determination, which is Scotland deciding what is best for Scotland. This very thread is the essence of it, when read back - more people not resident in Scotland than those who are, telling us what it is best for Scotland.  Pretty much the collapse of the British Empire (yes, of which Scotland was a driving force) in microcosm.
 

The majority of Scotland is politically opposed (pretty much opposite) England. 
 

Also worth noting that Scottish ‘nationalism’ is unlike most (all?) others Worldwide, in that through said self determination Scotland would be more welcoming, more inclusive and less isolationist than the (main) country Scotland is looking to separate from. Want to live here? Crack on, sign up! 
 

I’ve no doubt that in the short term Scotland and the rest of the U.K. would suffer economically, a price my ( but clearly not my parents) generation will probably be willing to pay. @grrclark clearly has more Economic knowledge than most if not all of the posters here including myself (what is your background?!) and presents a balanced viewpoint - is there a reasonable assumption as to time it would take to recover economically, for all parties? 
 

I’ve also no doubt that Scotland will be Independent in my lifetime (I’m 40). For those bemoaning this fact, no matter what side of the border Or part of the world, realistically there is only the political slide to the right in England to blame - 20 to 25 years ago this would have be unrealistic. 
 

Scotland isn’t comparable to a region of England, through history, education, legal and political backgrounds, and to say otherwise ignores the reality.... Though I can’t deny we’ve not more in common with those in the north than those in the south east of England.  

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by hod