Rewulf Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 12 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Henry cited two people doing the same job in what I assume is roughly the same area. One gets stopped 12 times in a period where the other doesn't get stopped at all. Now there may be other distinguishing characteristics between the two people, including what / how they drive, but seriously First off, if I was said person, I would be making a complaint after the first 3 or 4 times of being pulled, and asking them why this was so? Start talking racial profiling these days, and mentioning police harassment, I believe those stops would have ended very quickly, with a follow up letter of apology. That's why I find the claim dubious. Second, the issue I took was of this 1 example gave him the right to claim that discrimination was 'systemic' and comparing the UK to US levels of racism, thereby justifying demos/riots HERE, because of the death of a man in the US. No, this country has made great strides in combating racism and discrimination, towards ALL minorities, often to the detriment of the majority. To turn round and imply that we haven't, is an insult I will not ignore. How far do we need to go to satiate the Liberal lust for guilt driven atonement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 27 minutes ago, Rewulf said: First off, if I was said person, I would be making a complaint after the first 3 or 4 times of being pulled, and asking them why this was so? Start talking racial profiling these days, and mentioning police harassment, I believe those stops would have ended very quickly, with a follow up letter of apology. That's why I find the claim dubious. Second, the issue I took was of this 1 example gave him the right to claim that discrimination was 'systemic' and comparing the UK to US levels of racism, thereby justifying demos/riots HERE, because of the death of a man in the US. No, this country has made great strides in combating racism and discrimination, towards ALL minorities, often to the detriment of the majority. To turn round and imply that we haven't, is an insult I will not ignore. How far do we need to go to satiate the Liberal lust for guilt driven atonement? We have made great strides in the UK towards integration but still an awful long way to go. The fact that many do not recognise there is even an issue shows how far we still have to go. Unfortunately it's is in our nature to mistrust the outsider wether that be from our own group of friends, to someone from a different area, to a different country to someone with a different skin tone. Put all of these together and there is a recipe for going beyond mistrust to unwillingness to accept. This unwillingness is then reinforced by the people around us from within our accepted circle and it then becomes a point of known fact. This in turn leads to, if it is not allready a fundation of institutional racism. Anyone that has been in the forces including the police will either recognise this or also be part of the problem by not being able to discern the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 59 minutes ago, WalkedUp said: Racial profiling should not be used either way. You're right, it shouldn't. But inevitably to some extent it's bound to be, and it's not necessarily evidence of any kind of real negative intent on the part of the police. It's just the nature of policemen that they want to know stuff that's not necessarily their business at all. For example, even if you're just an innocent witness to a traffic accident, as likely not at some point in the conversation you'll find yourself being asked about your job, or your family, or where you were going when the accident happened, or some other irrelevant snippets of information. I don't know if it's training or natural, but this curiosity/nosiness seems hard-wired into them and it's just how they are. So when they see two white guys in an area where everyone else is Asian, it's like a rabbit running across in front of a spaniel. It overwhelmes their natural instincts and they can't help themselves. They have to stop whoever it is and ask them their business. That's not the same thing as, in an evenly mixed area, police stopping and questioning every 10th black guy but only every 50th white guy or whatever. But of course, even then if there are a disproportionate number of younger, gangish-looking blokes among the black passers by than among the white passers by then it's not really racial profiling per se at all, even if statistically that's what it looks like. A difficult area..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnphilip Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 24 minutes ago, oowee said: We have made great strides in the UK towards integration but still an awful long way to go. The fact that many do not recognise there is even an issue shows how far we still have to go. Unfortunately it's is in our nature to mistrust the outsider wether that be from our own group of friends, to someone from a different area, to a different country to someone with a different skin tone. Put all of these together and there is a recipe for going beyond mistrust to unwillingness to accept. This unwillingness is then reinforced by the people around us from within our accepted circle and it then becomes a point of known fact. This in turn leads to, if it is not allready a fundation of institutional racism. Anyone that has been in the forces including the police will either recognise this or also be part of the problem by not being able to discern the issue. Who needs to integrate???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrclark Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 38 minutes ago, oowee said: We have made great strides in the UK towards integration but still an awful long way to go. The fact that many do not recognise there is even an issue shows how far we still have to go. Unfortunately it's is in our nature to mistrust the outsider wether that be from our own group of friends, to someone from a different area, to a different country to someone with a different skin tone. Put all of these together and there is a recipe for going beyond mistrust to unwillingness to accept. This unwillingness is then reinforced by the people around us from within our accepted circle and it then becomes a point of known fact. This in turn leads to, if it is not allready a fundation of institutional racism. Anyone that has been in the forces including the police will either recognise this or also be part of the problem by not being able to discern the issue. That aligns with my consideration of things too. In some areas of Scotland we had, and sometimes still do have, insitutional sectarianism and this will certainly be the same in NI. You could reasonably argue that PW has a degree of institutional bias towards certain predications. If you have a large enough collective of those with a similar opinion within a community (instituion) then it very much lends itself towards systemic behaviours that are aligned with that opinion. Whether that is towards race, religion, political bias, etc. If you also have bias among community/instituion leadership or amongst significant influencers of the same then that also typically results in an unconscious bias. To suggest anything other that those behaviours exist is to deny human nature existing at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 33 minutes ago, oowee said: We have made great strides in the UK towards integration but still an awful long way to go. The fact that many do not recognise there is even an issue shows how far we still have to go. Unfortunately it's is in our nature to mistrust the outsider wether that be from our own group of friends, to someone from a different area, to a different country to someone with a different skin tone. Put all of these together and there is a recipe for going beyond mistrust to unwillingness to accept. This unwillingness is then reinforced by the people around us from within our accepted circle and it then becomes a point of known fact. This in turn leads to, if it is not allready a fundation of institutional racism. Anyone that has been in the forces including the police will either recognise this or also be part of the problem by not being able to discern the issue. An AWFUL long way to go ? Where are we going ? Equality ? Thats enshrined in law. Or do we not want equality ? And by that I mean the minorities will take a superior legal place in society, which is also enshrined in law via the protected status idea. So in effect , inequality.... Unwillingness to accept who ? There have been minorities in large numbers from the West Indies, Indian sub continent, and all 4 corners of the world for 3 ,4 , 5 generations ? They have been accepted, there have been no pogroms, the racists from the NF and BNP have been outlawed and removed, there is no appetite in this country for mindless knuckle dragging racism, we have also accepted the racism coming back from the minorities, we didnt riot , when the grooming gangs were exposed, terrorism or when children were killed by Asians or any other minority , we accepted that criminals are criminals whatever the colour, but hatreds mask is not always white. The hatred shown to police officers in London and other cities over the past days, and the hatred shown to white people here and in the US , is not the place to start the dialogue of ending the last vestiges of white racism, how can you talk equality and ending hatred, from a stand point of inequality, rage and revenge. It works both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, Rewulf said: First off, if I was said person, I would be making a complaint after the first 3 or 4 times of being pulled, and asking them why this was so? Start talking racial profiling these days, and mentioning police harassment, I believe those stops would have ended very quickly, with a follow up letter of apology. That's why I find the claim dubious. Second, the issue I took was of this 1 example gave him the right to claim that discrimination was 'systemic' and comparing the UK to US levels of racism, thereby justifying demos/riots HERE, because of the death of a man in the US. No, this country has made great strides in combating racism and discrimination, towards ALL minorities, often to the detriment of the majority. To turn round and imply that we haven't, is an insult I will not ignore. How far do we need to go to satiate the Liberal lust for guilt driven atonement? What about YellowBears 25-0 claim, you're OK with that putting to bed the notion that discrimination exists at all? I don't believe Henry was in any way justifying riots here. I agree on the great strides made here in the UK but I haven't experienced this being to my detriment, I'm not saying you are wrong, but do you have concrete examples? Again, I think you've over-extrapolated to get to a point where you are insulted, but I guess that's a personal thing. 1 hour ago, oowee said: We have made great strides in the UK towards integration but still an awful long way to go. The fact that many do not recognise there is even an issue shows how far we still have to go. Unfortunately it's is in our nature to mistrust the outsider wether that be from our own group of friends, to someone from a different area, to a different country to someone with a different skin tone. Put all of these together and there is a recipe for going beyond mistrust to unwillingness to accept. This unwillingness is then reinforced by the people around us from within our accepted circle and it then becomes a point of known fact. This in turn leads to, if it is not allready a fundation of institutional racism. Anyone that has been in the forces including the police will either recognise this or also be part of the problem by not being able to discern the issue. This. 17 minutes ago, grrclark said: That aligns with my consideration of things too. In some areas of Scotland we had, and sometimes still do have, insitutional sectarianism and this will certainly be the same in NI. You could reasonably argue that PW has a degree of institutional bias towards certain predications. If you have a large enough collective of those with a similar opinion within a community (instituion) then it very much lends itself towards systemic behaviours that are aligned with that opinion. Whether that is towards race, religion, political bias, etc. If you also have bias among community/instituion leadership or amongst significant influencers of the same then that also typically results in an unconscious bias. To suggest anything other that those behaviours exist is to deny human nature existing at all. And this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 2 hours ago, johnphilip said: That is rather a silly statement, maybe they only tell you what you want to hear . Think about it. Oh, I have! I would trust him with my life, I know he would not lie in this situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 Nothing to do with this topic admittedly, and merely an observation, but as we’re trailing off topic a bit I thought I’d add it. I’ve started watching a programme on tv about fare dodgers on London Transport, both buses and the tube ......I do like to see people get their comeuppance. 🙂 Anyhow, apparently London Transport lose over 30 million a year in revenue by people who dodge paying the fare that other people do. Most of the featured staff are white, but not overwhelmingly so, but most of those stopped in the programme ( and guilty of fare dodging ) are black, very closely followed by white foreign Europeans and a smattering of white middle class white ‘ do I look like a criminal?’ ....to which I fervently wished the black ticket inspector had replied ‘ well it just goes to show that looks can be deceiving then mate, doesn’t it’. 😂 I know that much of the programme is set in districts where black populations are predominant, but the observations don’t seem to change at ‘tapping out’ gates in the city itself. A Notable episode was the two black bus inspectors who questioned a young black lad regarding his ticket, whom became increasingly hostile. The police were called at which point he ran off. The police recovered him.....and a short katana he tried to throw away whilst fleeing! 😳 We’re in a sad state of affairs when checking someone’s bus tickets can put an employee in such a high risk position. I realise of course that there are often underlying issues, and it’s hard trying to support a family on minimum wage, I genuinely do feel sorry for those people, but I have to pay for every trip I make also. Nothing intended either way, merely an observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: What about YellowBears 25-0 claim, you're OK with that putting to bed the notion that discrimination exists at all? Yes discrimination does exist but it is not exclusive to the white majority as is propounded by the "liberals" and is worse in the "ghetto" areas of large conurbations as was the case I quoted. The bulk of the "stops" were due to calls complaining of suspicious activity from the very people who had made the noise complaints in the first place but only for one of the teams although their activities were identical. I will not go into further detail as we were instructed not to discuss but ignore it, and it will inevitably draw shouts of racism from the usual suspects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 11 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: but do you have concrete examples? Concrete examples of detrimental treatment ? Yellow bear gave you one. I could give you plenty, but its really not the point. We try VERY hard as a society to make everyone inclusive, its the law, which will be vigorously enforced to prevent discrimination in all aspects, but apparently its not enough ! Of course there is underlying racism in this country, but it isnt all WHITE racism. I have a lot of BAME friends (God how I hate that term !) who openly proffess how they hate this and that race, Asians hate blacks , blacks hate Asians, Asians hate different Asians. But its only white racism we need to 'stamp out' ? Just listen to white people in the media discuss racism, choosing their words so carefully so they dont cause offence , or risk the wrath of the 'race police' Listen to the orgasmic cries from the left as a politician makes a vague derogatory referral to a minority , as they bay for his resignation ! Again, you cant produce true equality by using inequality..it will NOT WORK. We need to start ignoring race, and maybe racism will just die a natural death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 Discrimination works in other ways as well. I remember sitting in a pub chatting to an African man when we were asked to move our chairs to allow a person in a wheel chair to get to the toilet, I was happy to do this but was amazed when the African complained that people in wheel chairs shouldn't be allowed in pubs,, this raised the question in my mind as to why I assumed he would be tolerant towards others just because he was black.. throughout the world people often dont trust other people from the next town, You can make it against the law as much as you like, but its not going to alter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 Just now, Yellow Bear said: Yes discrimination does exist but it is not exclusive to the white majority as is propounded by the "liberals" and is worse in the "ghetto" areas of large conurbations as was the case I quoted. The bulk of the "stops" were due to calls complaining of suspicious activity from the very people who had made the noise complaints in the first place but only for one of the teams although their activities were identical. I will not go into further detail as we were instructed not to discuss but ignore it, and it will inevitably draw shouts of racism from the usual suspects. Thanks for the further explanation. Just now, Rewulf said: Of course there is underlying racism in this country, but it isnt all WHITE racism. I have a lot of BAME friends (God how I hate that term !) who openly proffess how they hate this and that race, Asians hate blacks , blacks hate Asians, Asians hate different Asians. But its only white racism we need to 'stamp out' ? Just listen to white people in the media discuss racism, choosing their words so carefully so they dont cause offence , or risk the wrath of the 'race police' Listen to the orgasmic cries from the left as a politician makes a vague derogatory referral to a minority , as they bay for his resignation ! Again, you cant produce true equality by using inequality..it will NOT WORK. We need to start ignoring race, and maybe racism will just die a natural death. OK, totally with you on this! I think I've said before that some of the most racist and discriminating people I have ever met are themselves, in the UK context at least, from a minority background. I agree with you wholeheartedly that we must reject the notion of race, not just by differentiating in colour but also other forms of discrimination such as religion. I was on a call with a friend in Uganda last night and was trying to tell her that the solution to racism lies with the people who feel they are affected by it rejecting any and all notions of difference between us. She could not agree with me and I couldn't agree with her but she agreed to go away and reflect on my position around this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 Just now, islandgun said: Discrimination works in other ways as well. I remember sitting in a pub chatting to an African man when we were asked to move our chairs to allow a person in a wheel chair to get to the toilet, I was happy to do this but was amazed when the African complained that people in wheel chairs shouldn't be allowed in pubs,, this raised the question in my mind as to why I assumed he would be tolerant towards others just because he was black.. throughout the world people often dont trust other people from the next town, You can make it against the law as much as you like, but its not going to alter I suspect this is good old fashioned ignorance borne from cultural beliefs that disabled people are sinners - sad but true and very prevalent in African countries sadly. I once stayed in a French hotel room, which had been modified to cater for disabled guests, my Kenyan gf was apoplectic that we were given such a room and wanted me to demand a change. I didn't. This is the position from someone admitted to the Kenyan Bar and a practicing human rights lawyer working in refugee status determination in UNHCR. Bizarre much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 40 minutes ago, Rewulf said: We need to start ignoring race, and maybe racism will just die a natural death. Best comment I've read on the topic so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, henry d said: Oh, I have! I would trust him with my life, I know he would not lie in this situation. Would you trust his source, with your life? Edited June 5, 2020 by Newbie to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 15 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: Would you trust his source with your life? For a minute I thought you put wife ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 I honestly hope I have never been or will be a racist. I have never understood racism and hope I never will. I am proud of the fact that neither of my sons are racist, nor are my grandkids. If I see racism, I speak out. What more can I personally do? I don't fancy going on a rally, destroying property, leaving litter, defacing war memorials or shouting abuse at the Police, so what other options are there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 There are different levels of racism. The majority will deplore much of the overt stuff but to simply try to ignore race and as a result imagine that racism will disapear is naive. Overt 'NF' style racism is inextricably linked to other underlying issues of economic and educational disadvantage, a category that the majority of us are fortunate enough not to fall into. Recognising and celebrating difference for the richness it brings to our own lives and culture is likely to be far more rewarding for all, than trying to ignore it. We are after all a product of our rich history and diversity even if that is only linked to Italian, Norwegian and French heritage. Its the underlying racism that betrays the journey yet to be traveled. An example might be the initial focus of the thread highlighting failings of the protestors to abide by the rules and fear of what may follow whilst ignoring the sentiment behind the protest and the reasons why the protest was taking place. Focusing on the negative is an example of how we can be and how easily we allow ourselves to be distracted from the central issue of gross inequality within our society. We have in the majority, failed to recognise that 'Britishness' is all of us combined, the sum of the parts, rather than our little world as we see it. We have yet to come to terms with our racist past, where our wealth comes from conquest, slavery and exploitation. The very things that we profess to turn our back on, are the very things that gave us the wealth we have, that we now see undermined by the negative vision of immigration in all its forms. In many ways stealing back, can be seen as simply redistributing the wealth that we stole in the first place in order to create the 'Britishness' that we have conjured up for our own interpretation of the world around us. Some would argue that the increasing levels of racial tension in the UK are a reflection of the privelidged 'Imperial British' that are reflecting a percieved loss of status and position in the world that results from increasing levels of globalisation. None more so than the recent undercurrent of ideological catch phrase polotics of the recent Brexit referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scutt Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 Iam a racist. I think ? err not sure ?I could be ? don't really know what you have to do to become one but plenty of well educated folk will tell me I have ahead start cos I is white. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 7 minutes ago, oowee said: There are different levels of racism. The majority will deplore much of the overt stuff but to simply try to ignore race and as a result imagine that racism will disapear is naive. Overt 'NF' style racism is inextricably linked to other underlying issues of economic and educational disadvantage, a category that the majority of us are fortunate enough not to fall into. Recognising and celebrating difference for the richness it brings to our own lives and culture is likely to be far more rewarding for all, than trying to ignore it. We are after all a product of our rich history and diversity even if that is only linked to Italian, Norwegian and French heritage. Its the underlying racism that betrays the journey yet to be traveled. An example might be the initial focus of the thread highlighting failings of the protestors to abide by the rules and fear of what may follow whilst ignoring the sentiment behind the protest and the reasons why the protest was taking place. Focusing on the negative is an example of how we can be and how easily we allow ourselves to be distracted from the central issue of gross inequality within our society. We have in the majority, failed to recognise that 'Britishness' is all of us combined, the sum of the parts, rather than our little world as we see it. We have yet to come to terms with our racist past, where our wealth comes from conquest, slavery and exploitation. The very things that we profess to turn our back on, are the very things that gave us the wealth we have, that we now see undermined by the negative vision of immigration in all its forms. In many ways stealing back, can be seen as simply redistributing the wealth that we stole in the first place in order to create the 'Britishness' that we have conjured up for our own interpretation of the world around us. Some would argue that the increasing levels of racial tension in the UK are a reflection of the privelidged 'Imperial British' that are reflecting a percieved loss of status and position in the world that results from increasing levels of globalisation. None more so than the recent undercurrent of ideological catch phrase polotics of the recent Brexit referendum. OMG Grant , theres so many things wrong with that statement(s) I dont know where to start..so I wont. Feeling guilty for the sins of the fathers , perceived or real, is no way to start building unity. It feeds division, and thinking like the above, feeds the anger until , we get to the fires of revenge ..for something no living person lived through , or committed. 12 minutes ago, scutt said: Iam a racist. I think ? err not sure ?I could be ? don't really know what you have to do to become one but plenty of well educated folk will tell me I have ahead start cos I is white. According to some , white people are BORN racist, how can you combat that thinking ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 Next, burn that hateful white skin off , and maybe remove a few limbs. Its the only way to be truly sorry for racism and slavery...oh and give away all your money and property to minorities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) How many "races" of Panthera tigris do you see? I suspect exactly the same number that exist... Shame the picture doesn't show a melanistic one. Edited June 5, 2020 by Raja Clavata spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Just wondering what logic thought a skin head, would show solidarity agianst White supremacy. I think this is a joke, it has to be, right Edited June 5, 2020 by Newbie to this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted June 5, 2020 Report Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: I think this is a joke, it has to be, right Nope , its a 'thing' Only seen women do it though, if it were a man thing, would probably lead to more riots 😄 Edited June 5, 2020 by Rewulf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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