Changes To The General Licence

[McSpredder]

Conservatives hell-bent on alienating their natural support base?

Last week:   an attack on private landlords.

This week:   action against farmers, deliberately timed to prevent pest control just when brassicas and spring-sown cereals are emerging.

Does this seem an intelligent way to proceed, with local elections 9 days away, European Parliament elections (perhaps) at the end of next month, and quite possible a general election later this year?

[islandgun]

I think it would be hard for people to prove that you hadn't used other methods to remove pigeons from a crop.. surely farmers would back up any claims you might make, such as gas guns etc

[Dibble]

So what would happen if there was a closed season for Pigeon?

Would numbers peak over summer followed by a first day with everyone out and less wary birds? would overall numbers rise and so the numbers shot, rather backfiring on the Antis.

Then you would have a push at the end to reduce breeding pairs.

The market for birds would be flooded for a week or 2 at each end

Edited April 23, 2019 by Dibble

[Ultrastu]

My farmer told me a few months ago .when i asked him why he didnt plant any osr this winter .

That the pigeon damage on 2 of his fields (the ones closest to the houses  which i struggle to get to and shoot often ) was so great as to decide to forget the growing osr on his entire farm .it can be that serious. As a result ive had very little pigeon shooting this winter .

 

Also wouldnt it be up to the land owner to prove that he has tried other methods of bird management .failed and then called a shooter .

Why would the onus be on the shooter to prove it .? 

[ditchman]

11 minutes ago, McSpredder said:

Conservatives hell-bent on alienating their natural support base?

Last week:   an attack on private landlords.

This week:   action against farmers, deliberately timed to prevent pest control just when brassicas and spring-sown cereals are emerging.

Does this seem an intelligent way to proceed, with local elections 9 days away, European Parliament elections (perhaps) at the end of next month, and quite possible a general election later this year?

Thank god Farage is a beach fisherman and likes his countryside............

[Wingman]

40 minutes ago, ditchman said:

BASC.................as far as im concerned are a failure.......they have been taking shooters money for years to protect their rights..........and when it comes to what that organisation was set up for in the first place..they should have had their ear to the ground.....that is their job.......they were found wanting........so they have been taking our money ...to what avail...........they can "talk the talk ..........but they cant walk the walk"............

i hope this can be sorted out...its just another turn of the screw

100% correct waste of time clearly with no influence at all.

[grrclark]

51 minutes ago, Scully said:

Panic ye not....common sense will prevail. Eventually. 

It will, the reality of the impact will make itself felt very quickly.  When scut pigeons can't be dealt with in hospitals, supermarkets, food production facilities, etc and it moves beyond Packham's headline emotive argument of shooters in fields blasting the poor wee feathered beasties.

As an example although Scotland is currently spared this issue, albeit with an expectation it will follow soon, the SNP will be reminded how children died in the flagship new hospital in Glasgow through infection caused by pigeon droppings (that they are already being slammed about) and how without an ability to manage those pests that risk will dramatically rise. It is an indefensible position.

[Jelly]

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1106600329620176897

The first legal case was January 1st. Why haven't BASC picked up on this and worked against it from the beginning? Is that not what people pay membership for? 🤣

Edited April 23, 2019 by Jelly

[Ttfjlc]

5 minutes ago, Ultrastu said:

My farmer told me a few months ago .when i asked him why he didnt plant any osr this winter .

That the pigeon damage on 2 of his fields (the ones closest to the houses  which i struggle to get to and shoot often ) was so great as to decide to forget the growing osr on his entire farm .it can be that serious. As a result ive had very little pigeon shooting this winter .

 

Also wouldnt it be up to the land owner to prove that he has tried other methods of bird management .failed and then called a shooter .

Why would the onus be on the shooter to prove it .? 

This is my point about open to interpretation UltraStu, it could be up to the landowner to prove all non lethal methods have failed before you get the call, the onus may not be on the shooter to prove it, nobody actually knows because nobody as far as I'm aware has been took to court over it. 

[clumber]

Take from the NGO's site.

 

The NGO has reacted angrily to the announcement today by Natural England (NE) that they are to revoke the three main General Licences for pest bird control this Thursday.

From 'sometime on Thursday 25 April' (NE was unable to confirm to the NGO exactly when), General Licences GL04 (for the prevention of serious damage to crops and livestock), GL05 (for prevention of disease and ensuring public safety) and GL06 (for conservation purposes), will all cease to exist. 

The use of Larsen traps, crow cages and the shooting of sixteen pest bird species such as crows, rooks, magpies, and woodpigeons will all become illegal.

The news will stun not just gamekeepers but also farmers, pest controllers, nature reserve managers and everyone else who relies on the General Licences for essential routine control of problem birds.

NE said its sudden decision was the result of a legal challenge and was taken on the advice of its lawyers. It intends to issue replacement licences for 'certain circumstances' over the next few weeks and promises that a new temporary system for individual licensing will be available on its website 'by Thursday'. It remains to be seen whether this can possibly replace at such short notice the General Licensing system, which has been in existence since the 1990s and is used by thousands of people every single day of the year but especially in spring.

An NGO spokesman said the shock decision was already causing chaos and confusion and that it could also devastate wildlife and livelihoods.

"The science on this is completely clear. Without spring corvid control, wild gamebird production and the breeding of red-listed waders like the curlew and lapwing will be insufficient to maintain their English populations. 

"Stopping the use of all corvid traps and the shooting of crows and magpies at this time of year will be a disaster for wildlife, to say nothing of the livelihoods of those dependent on well-run grouse moors and farms where wild gamebirds such as the declining grey partridge are being managed."

The NGO has already spoken with NE's Director responsible, telling her just how much concern and chaos the decision will cause. The NGO is demanding comprehensive alternative licensing arrangements and proper communication from NE so that those who need to control pest birds know what is going on.

In the meantime, the NGO can only advise gamekeepers needing to continue trapping and shooting after Thursday to check out the Gov.uk/Natural England website, for any arrangements for individual licences that NE announces this Thursday.

NE's announcement this afternoon appears at: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/general-licences-for-bird-control-major-changes-to-licensing-requirements  

[AYA117]

4 minutes ago, Jelly said:

 https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1106600329620176897

The first legal case was January 1st. Why haven't BASC picked up on this and worked against it from the beginning? Is that not what people pay membership for?

Membership fees are to cover expenses, wages, going to shows and telling us how good they are for ' our ' sport. Thought that was common knowledge 

[grrclark]

1 hour ago, simonm said:

Wow, the comments on Facebook are worrying! From people saying they'll be ok as they only wander round a permission to take a few for the pot, to the person saying "I think it's just people with licences to kill them I've been looking and doesn't seem to say people with shotgun license", to those saying only the police can take away their general licence anyway 😟

I wholeheartedly agree.  While I would never advocate any further legislative burden on shooters there are many who would very much benefit from a healthy dose of education around these sort of issues and if there were assessments of things like the GL prior to issuing tickets I suspect there would be more than a few left wanting.

[figgy]

Who knows what they have or have not been doing as they rarely tell us anything.

I stopped paying for the cpsa as they do nothing for shooting other than a scoreboard and classes for shooters. 

If it wasn't part of my wildfowling syndicate fees I wouldn't bother with BASC. Just can't see what they actually acheive. Price forces are doing as they please with your licences. More restrictions happening all the time.  Packham and co seem to be able to campaign and lobby harrass at will. The shooting organisations seem useless.

[AYA117]

26 minutes ago, clumber said:

NE said its sudden decision was the result of a legal challenge and was taken on the advice of its lawyers.

If we are lucky and it is only a guess, maybe the legal advice was that the current legislation would not stand up to scrutiny in court, so better to have something that was beyond contestation 

[silver pigeon69]

11 minutes ago, figgy said:

Who knows what they have or have not been doing as they rarely tell us anything.

I stopped paying for the cpsa as they do nothing for shooting other than a scoreboard and classes for shooters. 

If it wasn't part of my wildfowling syndicate fees I wouldn't bother with BASC. Just can't see what they actually acheive. Price forces are doing as they please with your licences. More restrictions happening all the time.  Packham and co seem to be able to campaign and lobby harrass at will. The shooting organisations seem useless.

Its worrying that NE etc seem more afraid of Packham and his crowd funding group, that have been around for 10 minutes, with very few facts to back them up, than the likes of BASC, CA, NGO etc.

Edited April 23, 2019 by silver pigeon69

[andrewluke]

9 minutes ago, figgy said:

Who knows what they have or have not been doing as they rarely tell us anything.

I stopped paying for the cpsa as they do nothing for shooting other than a scoreboard and classes for shooters. 

If it wasn't part of my wildfowling syndicate fees I wouldn't bother with BASC. Just can't see what they actually acheive. Price forces are doing as they please with your licences. More restrictions happening all the time.  Packham and co seem to be able to campaign and lobby harrass at will. The shooting organisations seem useless.

same here

[silver pigeon69]

12 minutes ago, figgy said:

Who knows what they have or have not been doing as they rarely tell us anything.

I stopped paying for the cpsa as they do nothing for shooting other than a scoreboard and classes for shooters. 

If it wasn't part of my wildfowling syndicate fees I wouldn't bother with BASC. Just can't see what they actually acheive. Price forces are doing as they please with your licences. More restrictions happening all the time.  Packham and co seem to be able to campaign and lobby harrass at will. The shooting organisations seem useless.

Its part of my clay club otherwise I wouldn't bother with BASC either.

[B725]

1 hour ago, Yellow Bear said:

Here      https://www.smartsurvey.co.uk/s/4LIRL/?fbclid=IwAR3QsnV6hpoAATj5xB3LEsRd72TJcYWgBHVRjoKbrMvkXqHzPavqH3wOBM0

Thank you Yellow Bear just done it. 

[Jelly]

For me, Regulation = revenue. This has been seen as an opportunity to gain income from something that previously wasn't generating income under the guise of 'conservation' . I'm trying to be positive and am thinking that if they see money can be generated it may further cement our sporting rights. 

[B725]

I have only just received an email from BASC they are slow at sending it out I've been a member for many years, I may have to rethink about continuing with them. 

[Ultrastu]

If natural england are worried that the terms of the gl.arent clear enough and open to missuse .maybe they should just remove the legal protection for pigeons crows etc  (afforded to other species) and put them with rabbits .rats etc .which can be controlled year round and require no licence general or otherwise .

The birds would obviously  still need to be dispatched humanely as in the same manner as mammals. 

This would end any confusion around crop protection or health issues etc.

And while they are at it .add herring guls to the list too please .

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Ultrastu

[Jelly]

Interesting from the chairman of Natural England:

He seems rather anti the legal challenge by Packham

 

[team tractor]

2 hours ago, simonm said:

Wow, the comments on Facebook are worrying! From people saying they'll be ok as they only wander round a permission to take a few for the pot, to the person saying "I think it's just people with licences to kill them I've been looking and doesn't seem to say people with shotgun license", to those saying only the police can take away their general licence anyway 😟

My mate prints it off each year and tells people it’s a license. I’ve tried telling him it’s not like that but basically just rules to follow. 

He said he will just say he’s moving them on  I’ve told him he’s looking for trouble. 

[lancer425]

Please can we lay off the BASC bashing just for now, we none of us know what they have done or are doing. Give them a chance it could just be they can not do anything any way, but i do not think now is the time or place to vent about BASC . Just my opinion. yours may vary.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, lancer425 said:

Please can we lay off the BASC bashing just for now, we none of us know what they have done or are doing. Give them a chance it could just be they can not do anything any way, but i do not think now is the time or place to vent about BASC . Just my opinion. yours may vary.

Your right of course but we have known about the challenge since January. Basc are sitting on several million of our cash. Our sport is under threat each and every day. I would expect to see BASC leading from the front, not for me to look for what they are doing. If some poxy campaign group can garner support and cash to mount an action why is my organisation 'BASC' not leading from the front. I am sure, we as shooters, would be happy to match anything that BASC choose to raise in action against this sort of challenge.