Red Diesel

[millrace]

 

9 minutes ago, TRINITY said:

 I think this will be a win win. They will raise all the extra tax from the legitimate users as well as clawing back all the lost revenue from illegal use.

 

"So I as a legitimate user" you wont mind paying more for the goods/services you receive as I have to pass on increased fuel cost to you .....ie the end consumer,,like you say win win!!! ....

Edited March 4, 2020 by millrace

[TRINITY]

6 minutes ago, millrace said:

 

"So I as a legitimate user" you wont mind paying more for the goods/services you receive as I have to pass on increased fuel cost to you .....ie the end consumer,,like you say win win!!! ....

No think I need to make it more clear, it's the treasury that get the win win. When the treasury scores a win the public score a loss. 

However I will just expand this thread a little further. Although I havnt got the link it was mentioned somewhere in the news this week that farming is no longer relevant. Some think tank has published a report suggesting that all the UK,s food should be imported . Perhaps this diesel tax is taking that into account.

[Walker570]

There is no doubt the legal use of red diesel could be tidied up.  I was collecting some for my tractor ( I have a holding number) and another rather smart gent was also filling drums. I asked what he used it for and he said for his barge on the canal.  I said "Oh, I thought commercial barges no longer existed" and he said it was their pleasure craft.  Now there is one way to reap in a little more revenue and there must be more.  To be honest, my use legally is so small I would not be against paying the full price, but there again it could be done through purchase/invoice and then a minimum annual usage.

Re the illegal use, well when we had a proper police force all our patrol cars had 'dipper' and test kits where we could stop a vehicle and very quickly check the fuel. If it turned out to be red, then we handed the whole thing over to Customs and Excise and the owner/driver usually walked out of the Police Station with just the clothes he was wearing. 

[TRINITY]

Was on local news there are numerous garages in Yorkshire that have a red diesel forecourt pump. They filmed people just pulling up and filling barrels in their cars, really blatant

[udderlyoffroad]

14 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

and another rather smart gent was also filling drums. I asked what he used it for and he said for his barge on the canal. 

This is a whole 'nother topic, as until recently pleasure craft could use red diesel for propulsion.   I don't want to turn this into another Brexit thread, but the short version is, the EU insisted HMRC collect tax on such, despite HMRC protesting it would cost more to collect than it would raise in revenue!  Of course, this being the EU common sense prevailed...oh no, wait, it didn't.  HMRC are still trying to work out how the collect tax related to propulsion of pleasure craft, but not on diesel used for heating, power generation, etc.

 

1 minute ago, TRINITY said:

They filmed people just pulling up and filling barrels in their cars, really blatant

There are any number of legitimate uses for red diesel, I would've told the nosey parkers filming to poke off.  And also reminded them of the law regarding use of electrical equipment on the forecourt.  Of course, the container used for filling must be 1. approved for use, and 2. be placed on the ground, not filled in the car!

 

[Rim Fire]

17 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

This is a whole 'nother topic, as until recently pleasure craft could use red diesel for propulsion.   I don't want to turn this into another Brexit thread, but the short version is, the EU insisted HMRC collect tax on such, despite HMRC protesting it would cost more to collect than it would raise in revenue!  Of course, this being the EU common sense prevailed...oh no, wait, it didn't.  HMRC are still trying to work out how the collect tax related to propulsion of pleasure craft, but not on diesel used for heating, power generation, etc.

 

There are any number of legitimate uses for red diesel, I would've told the nosey parkers filming to poke off.  And also reminded them of the law regarding use of electrical equipment on the forecourt.  Of course, the container used for filling must be 1. approved for use, and 2. be placed on the ground, not filled in the car!

 

I think the film Trinity is on about was shown other week  the filming was done at distance and they followed them and seen them putting it into their cars 

[Remimax]

3 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Not just agriculture, all the charter fishing boats I've ever been on run red diesel as do commercial fishing vessels and ferries I would imagine. Not a very well thought out policy in my opinion.

i've been running two fishing charterboats for over 20years this will be the end of the job in my eye's.

 i've seen it decline in the last 10years as a lot of the clubs and old guy's call it a day

running an 8.2 litre 320hp marine engine on normal diesel is a non starter at current charter fees for our area. .

looks like we will be running viking fishing trips were you book you seat and row out to the marks.

[Raja Clavata]

Just now, Remimax said:

i've been running two fishing charterboats for over 20years this will be the end of the job in my eye's.

 i've seen it decline in the last 10years as a lot of the clubs and old guy's call it a day

running an 8.2 litre 320hp marine engine on normal diesel is a non starter at current charter fees for our area. .

looks like we will be running viking fishing trips were you book you seat and row out to the marks.

It's shocking, like I said a very badly thought out policy if true. I certainly hope it doesn't come to be.

[TRINITY]

22 minutes ago, Remimax said:

i've been running two fishing charterboats for over 20years this will be the end of the job in my eye's.

 i've seen it decline in the last 10years as a lot of the clubs and old guy's call it a day

running an 8.2 litre 320hp marine engine on normal diesel is a non starter at current charter fees for our area. .

looks like we will be running viking fishing trips were you book you seat and row out to the marks.

Wind and canvas is the answer 🤣

[old man]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

 

Re the illegal use, well when we had a proper police force all our patrol cars had 'dipper' and test kits where we could stop a vehicle and very quickly check the fuel. If it turned out to be red, then we handed the whole thing over to Customs and Excise and the owner/driver usually walked out of the Police Station with just the clothes he was wearing. 

Stop it now.

We can't have a society where the criminals are penalised?

[walshie]

1 hour ago, Walker570 said:

There is no doubt the legal use of red diesel could be tidied up.  I was collecting some for my tractor ( I have a holding number) and another rather smart gent was also filling drums. I asked what he used it for and he said for his barge on the canal.  I said "Oh, I thought commercial barges no longer existed" and he said it was their pleasure craft.  Now there is one way to reap in a little more revenue and there must be more.  To be honest, my use legally is so small I would not be against paying the full price, but there again it could be done through purchase/invoice and then a minimum annual usage.

Re the illegal use, well when we had a proper police force all our patrol cars had 'dipper' and test kits where we could stop a vehicle and very quickly check the fuel. If it turned out to be red, then we handed the whole thing over to Customs and Excise and the owner/driver usually walked out of the Police Station with just the clothes he was wearing. 

I got a few gallons of red diesel for use round the smallholding and the guy in the petrol station asked me for my CPH number, which I had to phone the wife for. He didn't check it against anything so I could have made it up. 

I've had my van dipped twice by plod over the years, but not in the last decade. 

[Walker570]

Yes, Customs and Excise do STOPS and my friend was stopped in his Landi and dipped but back in my day..early 60s to late 80s we had the kits and used them. I have seen a lot of Ford Transit trucks fitted with tow bars crushed over the years.  Dealing with police officers was like a free holiday compared with dealing with the Custom guys back then.

[B725]

I went to the Royal show a few year's ago, as I turned off the engine a very pretty young lady approached in a vis vest holding up an ID. Customs and excise sir may I dip your tank.As I looked past her there was a extremly large man with his arm's folded dressed in the same vis vest.She then brought out the dipping equipment but the Discovery had an anti syphon trap in it so she didn't get any out of it. She apologised for any delay and just moved on to the next diesel car with the man following at a distance. It looked like they were going to check as many car's as they could. If we had been in the farmer's car who was with me they would have hit the jackpot as he often filled his car with red diesel.

[Vince Green]

3 hours ago, Walker570 said:

There is no doubt the legal use of red diesel could be tidied up.  I was collecting some for my tractor ( I have a holding number) and another rather smart gent was also filling drums. I asked what he used it for and he said for his barge on the canal.  I said "Oh, I thought commercial barges no longer existed" and he said it was their pleasure craft.  Now there is one way to reap in a little more revenue and there must be more.  To be honest, my use legally is so small I would not be against paying the full price, but there again it could be done through purchase/invoice and then a minimum annual usage.

Re the illegal use, well when we had a proper police force all our patrol cars had 'dipper' and test kits where we could stop a vehicle and very quickly check the fuel. If it turned out to be red, then we handed the whole thing over to Customs and Excise and the owner/driver usually walked out of the Police Station with just the clothes he was wearing. 

AFAIK Canal boats etc have always run on red diesel, You can run anything on red diesel as long as it doesn't have wheels on the public highway. 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Vince Green

[crosswaters]

I keep my yacht at Whitehaven marina and buy red diesel from the marina. 

I have to fill in a usage form stating what I'm using the red diesel for and I have two options .

1/ for propulsion I have to pay the higher tax tariff (more than white diesel at a garage forecourt.

2/for heating I pay the lower tariff as normal red diesel prices.

It is illegal to decant fuel from external containers within the marina area.

So most of us when buying diesel at the marina office always say my heater is massive diesel heater and my engine is a wee small thing that burns very little fuel, and all we get from the office is a pleasant smile as they are very understanding good staff.

Of course when sailing over to Isle of Man or Ireland and Scots ports we never get asked what we using diesel for as it would be a silly question wouldn't it.

Regards        

[norfolk dumpling]

Until we see the full budget this is only speculation. The removal of one subsidy - to remove tax evasion or an environmental measure  - may be offset by increased farm/fishing subsidies. There are also rumours basic tax down by 2p, an increase to the personal allowance and the 40/50p threshold raised but higher earners hit by various measures to try to reduce wealth gap. Having said this the corona virus may require a big fighting fund and a lot may be deferred.

[Cranfield]

I agree it is only speculation and typical just before a Budget.

I could see Farmers and Fishermen getting some exemption, or subsidy, but I do believe the Plant and Construction Industry, who probably use the vast majority of red diesel, do not merit the subsidy.
These are companies that make vast profits and should pay their way, they are also better placed to pass some of the cost on to their customers, more so that Farmers and Fishermen..

 

 

[ordnance]

I  can't see it happening, few governments want to annoy the farmers and lose their vote. Here you would just drive over the border and fill up. 

[AULD YIN]

95% of the members boats  of my motor boat club run diesel  engines and heating run  on red diesel as well , also  the canal boats do the same , so another loss of a leisure activity as the cost would make it way more than we could afford 

Edited March 4, 2020 by AULD YIN

[GingerCat]

In 1989 or thereabouts the mooring fees for my dad's boat were £300 a metre per year. I'd hate to think what it costs now but I'd say if you can afford it a few pence extra on diesel won't stop you. 

[AULD YIN]

Just had my rates for this year £16 +vat per foot berthed   on pontoons ,our club was founded as affordable  boating for the working class

Edited March 5, 2020 by AULD YIN
add on info

[JohnfromUK]

Papers reporting that red will continue .......... but not be allowed to as many users.  Of the ones mentioned;

• Agriculture will still have 'red' (not dutied)
• Construction will have to use 'normal' (with duty paid)

No mention of boating or other uses in the article: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8076023/Rishi-Sunak-set-axe-freeze-fuel-duty-upcoming-budget.html

"The need to meet climate change targets is likely to be used as cover for duty rises.

As a first step, Mr Sunak will slash subsidies for the 'red diesel' used by off-road vehicles. The subsidy, which costs the Treasury £2.4billion, will in future only be available for farm vehicles, with the construction industry expected to use normal diesel, which attracts five times as much duty."

[Essex Keeper]

Sorry but what a joke how will they inforce the difference between construction and farming 

[Bobba]

8 minutes ago, Essex Keeper said:

Sorry but what a joke how will they inforce the difference between construction and farming 

Probably the way they have done in the past with relief from hydrocarbon fuel oil tax eg for commercial boats which run on unleaded petrol. Owners apply for and are granted relief entitlement by HMRC. Owners purchase full priced fuel in the normal way and kept receipts and usage logs. They then claim the tax back from HMRC at the rate per litre specified by HMRC.

I did this for my dive club for many years as I persuaded HMRC to regard our dive ribs as safety cover boats. It was very lucrative for club funds. It dawned on them after many years that they really were pleasure activities. They issued an interpretive note and removed our relief status. 😪

So, one system could be that all "red" is fully taxed and those deemed eligible for relief would be registered and could claim tax refunds eg farming, fishing, and those not entitled eg construction co's would not be allowed to register and would carry the costs. Such a system would also mop up what is currently illegal use.

Probaby too simplistic approach for HMRC.

[wascal]

15 hours ago, B725 said:

I went to the Royal show a few year's ago, as I turned off the engine a very pretty young lady approached in a vis vest holding up an ID. Customs and excise sir may I dip your tank.As I looked past her there was a extremly large man with his arm's folded dressed in the same vis vest.She then brought out the dipping equipment but the Discovery had an anti syphon trap in it so she didn't get any out of it. She apologised for any delay and just moved on to the next diesel car with the man following at a distance. It looked like they were going to check as many car's as they could. If we had been in the farmer's car who was with me they would have hit the jackpot as he often filled his car with red diesel.

HMRC were at Norwich Market a few years back dipping   landys and they tried to dip my discovery .

"But I've just left the calor gas showroom " says I

"doesn't matter!!" says the smug clipboard man

"It's a v8 petrol running on LPG " I smirked back