How Much Longer Will We Be Abel To AFFORD To Shoot Pigeons ??

[marsh man]

Before we start this thread it is not aimed at any individual it is purely a fact finding mission about now having less and less disposable income and the effect it will have on pest control in general which at the moment we are carrying it for free , so please gents , as per to the P W rule book . no muggings 

Before we come to the present situation we will have a quick look at the beginning , most middle age shooters and us older ones can go back to the time when the do it yourself game shoots were far and few between and even if there was one I doubt if many of us could afford to be a paid up member , we shot a few Pigeons on roost shoots and the odd one on our travels , then after reading Archie Coats book I thought I would have a go at decoying , first of all we needed land to shoot on , as luck would have it the farm nearest to my old house was growing Peas that spring and we saw several go on just before the Peas were vined, my brother who was a bit older than me went and knocked on the farmers door and asked if we could have a go on his Peas , much to our surprise he said yes help yourself ( and believe it or not I still shoot duck on his marshes for now close on 60 years ) , anyhow , we bought some cheap decoys and got the M D nets from the advert in the back of the Shooting Times , on the first day I went it was more luck than judgement that I set up in the right place , had the wind on my back and ended the day on a personable best of 26 , this was like a drug and I was hooked , I remember laying them out in our outside toilet and walking down to the public phone box to ring up Pettits the game dealers in Reedham to see if they would buy the Pigeons and I ended up taking them on my Honda 50 and got 9d each when the cartridges cost 6d , so even then you could get a good part of your cartridge money back .

Moving fast forward to the mid 70s we had built up a lot of land running into several 1000 acres and were shooting a lot of Pigeons , the cartridges were still cheap ( £40 a 1000 ) and we were getting a good price ( 40/45p ) for the Pigeons , in a very short area we had at least five game dealers who all wanted Pigeons , this was more or less the peak time , I was taking my pigeons to Frost Game and would often get between £50 and £100 which was a lot of money then ,and then from there I would go a few miles down the road to Jimmy Lings to buy some cartridges , the fuel was also a fair price and me and my brother would often take mine and I would take his when I went up to the dealers .

This carried on into the 80s when the bubble began to burst and the demand was slowing down , odd dealers were closing down and the price of Pigeons also dropped down to around 30p fresh and 25p for frozen , this was fine and I bought an ole ice cream freezer that held at least 300 , when it was full I would take them up with the fresh ones I had got the day before or if they were older they would be laid out on the frozen ones with a sheet over them so when I took them on the Sunday morning they were still fresh , I would then have a empty freezer and about £100 in my pocket to buy a few more shells .

We will now move into the first part of this century , we are now down to one dealer in the whole of Norfolk who was still buying frozen Pigeons , the price kept dropping and dropping to the measly sum of 10p I got last year , now I believe they are no longer taking Pigeons .

Now we will get back to the title of this thread , as you are all well a where the cost of everything is getting out of control , fuel is at a record price , gas and electric is causing panic across the country , the interest rate is now going up which will result in higher mortgages , cartridges are now around £300 a 1000 and inflation is running at over 9 percent , everyone have only got a certain amount of disposable income to carry on with whatever they like doing .

In my case , I retired nearly 15 years ago and only rely on my state pension and a very small pension I get from where I worked and my wife income is exactly the same .

Touch wood we paid off our mortgage years ago and we haven't got any debt which is a blessing , as you know I love my Pigeon shooting which I don't mind saying I purely do it for the sport , on average it cost me around £50 / 60 a week , mind you I am out there more or less everyday either looking or shooting and as you well know it don't take long to use half a gallon of fuel when the estate where I shoot is three miles across and the small income I get from the sale of Pigeons is next to nothing by the time the cost of fuel is taking in account to deliver them .

As it was pointed out to me you cannot do Pigeon shooting for sport , then I cannot see how I could afford to be a self funded pest controller and what would I be getting out of it by doing something I don't enjoy ? .

Just lately there have been a lot of full sets of decoying gear on the forum , and I also noticed that Just Cartridges were delivering all Pigeon cartridges free of charge , Why , are people packing it in and is cartridge sales dropping off ?

So how I look at it is before long the farmer might have to start coughing up to pay towards the cost of protecting his crops , as very few people will be able to afford to carry it out for free , also if he rung you up say Monday to say the Pigeons are giving his corn a good ole bashing , who will be able to afford to take at least one day off from work and pay for fuel and cartridges when you can't even do it for sport ?

As I said at the beginning this is not aimed at anyone , but there will be several people who it could apply to and if my and your money is getting tight , How would YOU get around it , after all Pigeons feed everyday of the week and not just when you have time to go .

[bruno22rf]

I think you will find that plenty of people have plenty of disposable income, I'm guessing there is still a waiting list for Ferraris? There are also a lot more people looking to shoot than there is land available so I would imagine it will not be long before you see vermin shooting advertised by the day, the legality is a tiny issue and 2 guns at £75/day each  is a nice earner if it's cash and you are getting your crop protected. I think those with the lowest income will suffer most, nothing new there. 

[Scrimshanker]

There is no other non professional sport I know that you get paid to do. If you love to shoot, then it looks like the days of earning from it are over and like other pastimes we will unfortunately have to pay for the privilege of enjoying it. As Bruno says there are plenty of shooters trying to find permissions and this shift in circumstances may just free up land for others to enjoy and be able to tell the tales that you are able to to us on PW. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

Great post MM, 👍

[ditchman]

Jimmy Lings...........they were the only cartridge i used...21/2" #7...........i think Jimmy had them made up by Hull.........then he stopped doing them..Bbbaaahhhh

[mel b3]

About four weeks ago , my Mrs had some money stolen out of one of her bank accounts . She went through all of our accounts to see if any other monies had been stolen . The money had been disappearing out of my shooting account so quickly,  that she thought it had been hacked , and the money was being siphoned off . ( I had been covering a lot of miles,  and used a lot of cartridges). 

The whole world seems to be sliding backwards at the moment . It seems that the rich are getting richer , and the poor are getting poorer. It won't be long before an ordinary working man , can't afford to go shooting any longer . If things carry on as they are at the moment,  shooting will only be open to the very well off , and the working man will be poaching rabbits for the table.

[mgsontour]

Interesting post and personally I don't waste money but do spend on things I enjoy and need, so guess I'll keep shooting but that's just one man's old fashioned approach to financial well-being and shooting

[old'un]

There's a farmer I know who lets out his 1000 acres for pest control, last I heard he was charging £275 a year, you pay your money and you can go when you like and shoot any legal quarry, there are 20 guns on the farm and a waiting list to join, so no signs of a shortage of money there.

I know the farm well and before he started charging I shot a lot of pigeons on there, the only worthwhile shooting is on the stubbles, during this time you can hear shooting from nearly every stubble field but the rest of the year (winter) you very rarely hear a shot, but it seems there are plenty of people out there willing to pay for somewhere to shoot, even if that shooting is only any good for maybe two months of the year.

[Dave at kelton]

Interesting post and guess it depends where in life you are. Usually when you have money you are too busy earning and don’t have the time and vice versa. There aren’t many sports where you don’t subsidise the cost because that’s what you choose to do. It is just that shooting pigeon once paid for itself. 

it is no different working dogs. Last season I worked three days a week of which one day paid for the cost of the fuel. That has gone up but I won’t get paid any more to pickup. I doubt that this year the income over the season will cover the cost of my dogs but that’s what I choose to do. If anything goes it would be my half gun on the local shoot. Wildfowling costs me next to nothing £120 a year plus cartridges and I load those myself.

I will keep going despite retiring at the end of the year so less disposable income.

[Bobba]

An interesting post. Thank you.

It’s interesting where savings can be made in one area to help fund another. (My shooting) I’ve been retired many years. Despite retirement I continued the habit of buying the Daily Telegraph ( each to his own), also at weekends. A combination of lockdown and the increase in cartridge prices caused me to examine my outgoings. I decided not to buy the newspaper and get my news in other ways, only occasionally buying the mini Independent. At todays prices, not buying the Telegraph will fund over 2000 cartridges. For example, £2.80 / day x 5 + £3.50 Sat + £3.00 Sun = £20.50 / week x 52 weeks = £1,066.

[Aled]

Interesting post guys. I think where there is a will there is a way. A good few years ago i got myself into a hole financially (totally self inflicted) anyway i sat down with a pen a paper and crunched some numbers....to continue to enjoy my fishing and shooting i had to make changes somewhere so.....my social life was dramatically reduced, (i was still in my 20's) i bought no luxury's, sky tv went, i used the library, and shopped more savvy, (home brand tesco baked beans are pretty acceptable!)... I ate a lot of sea trout and rabbit that year!!! ...I also drank less beer and lost weight, there's a moral there somewhere!! So perhaps we will have to enjoy our sport within the financial means we have available? 

Cheers Aled  

[Scully]

25 minutes ago, Bobba said:

An interesting post. Thank you.

It’s interesting where savings can be made in one area to help fund another. (My shooting) I’ve been retired many years. Despite retirement I continued the habit of buying the Daily Telegraph ( each to his own), also at weekends. A combination of lockdown and the increase in cartridge prices caused me to examine my outgoings. I decided not to buy the newspaper and get my news in other ways, only occasionally buying the mini Independent. At todays prices, not buying the Telegraph will fund over 2000 cartridges. For example, £2.80 / day x 5 + £3.50 Sat + £3.00 Sun = £20.50 / week x 52 weeks = £1,066.

This. It doesn’t just apply to pigeons. I shoot pests, game and clays with shotguns and rifles. Those for whom shooting is a way of life will always find a way. 

[oldypigeonpopper]

11 hours ago, oldypigeonpopper said:

Great post MM, 👍

Hello, has anyone changed there brand, type of cartridges for pigeon shooting, where once I used 30g/32g 5 or 6 shot 10 or more years ago, it's now 28g 7.5s plastic or fibre with extra choke, and that's about as cheap as one can buy cartridges , or is everyone a die hard black gold pigeon shooter, 

[marsh man]

Many THANKS to those who have already replied , reading between the lines it seems each county or shooting area is different to the amount of shooting available , I can only vouch where I live and even at my peak I wouldn't travel no more than 15 miles from where I live .

I can honestly say , hand on heart that I have never found it hard to get perms , maybe we started at the right time and built up a number of contacts . in one way it is a dream to have countless farms to shoot over but it do come at a cost .

I used to shoot on a farm about five miles from mine that was run at the time by our farm managers brother , this farm was just over a 1000 acres , and as time wore on I got the go ahead on one or two surrounding farms , one of these farms grew Brocoli and produced some good shooting when the plants were still small , so far so good , then the farmer joined a group of like minded farmers and grew more and more of the stuff , each year they were contracting more and more land and when I gave it up they were growing up to 800 acres , this was costing me far to much time and money for fuel , after I packed it in the farmer rang me up and offered to pay towards my fuel but once it was more than 15 miles away I bowed out , I thanked him for his offer but told him I just didn't have the time to keep an eye on it all.

I dare say in Norfolk we grow as much , if not more grain than any other county in the UK , there is just 1000s upon 1000s tons of grain grown the width and the length of the  county and it would be nigh on impossible for Pigeon shooters to cover a fraction of the land , as another example , 

I keep advising any new member around our way , or even further afield who is looking for Pigeon shooting is to join there local wild fowling club as most of them have got some decent land to go on , our two local clubs share the same land and at a rough guess there are 250 members between the two clubs , you would think with that many members keeping an eye on several rape fields , Pea fields and a lot of grain fields that it wouldn't be worth going , how wrong you would be , I used to live very close to some of the land and I had been many , many days without seeing another person and if you knew what you were doing you could often get a good bag .

Even though I have the run of the Pigeon shooting on the estate where I shoot I have never ever stopped anyone going if they want a few days out , all they need to do is ring the man in charge and he will put them on to me , I would then go out of my way to find him a good day as I know it would only be a one off , since February when I take over the Pigeon shooting I have had two requests from the same person and one last week from the farm foreman , we can carry on until just before we have our first shoot and I doubt I will get many more requests .

Going back to the finance side of it , they recon that next year the gas and the electric bills could eat up half of your pension , then you have the council tax , the water and sewage charge , running a motor , house insurance , food bills and many unforeseen charges .

So I know fully well at 75 that my days of Pigeon shooting and wildfowling  will soon be drawing to close , I will continue as long as my body can put up with it and the finance allow , but as it was pointed out , I now more or less only play the game , but I have always called it sport first and foremost and that is the way it will be till the game is over and guns are hung up.

 

[oowee]

I am in Somerset. I shoot mostly crows rather than pigeons which I mostly receive nothing for, some will not shoot them. I cart's at £380 a thou. I travel on average around 50 miles a day and shot two or three times a week. Also fox and deer in the evenings. On average I would guess I spend around £350 - £400 a month on running costs. 

A trip out last week cost £50 for 20 pigeons and a fox. Its a lot better than £50 for no return. It's a hobby if I could not afford it I would do less. 

[ditchman]

look on the bright side.........it might get to the point that the govt quickly realises that thousands of tons/year of foodstuff is being eaten by animals..(fur and feather)....

and a national call out to anyone who can leagally handle a gun to do their bit in helping to feed the nation.....these people will be given free ammunition and a weekly retainer..and a bounty head bonus

normal folk will stand outside there doors at 7 oclock each night and bang their pots and pans to show there love of these valiant lifesavers.....we will get 50% off fuel and take-a-ways and 50% off on butlin holidays and instant access to doctors and dentists....

yep it could happen ...when folk taste hunger they will do anything

[martinj]

Local game dealers have been refusing to take pigeons in the hot weather because the birds have been going off so quickly. A pigeon guide friend had to chat up the game  dealer to convince him to take birds at 10p each.

What he has been doing is as follows: No birds for the dealer get used as decoys because they'll overheat in the sun, the shooter brings them into the hide or behind the hide as soon as they are shot and lays them out breast up in the shade. The guide collects the shot birds and plucks the breasts to remove the insulating feathers, he lays them in trays with bottles of frozen water between them and they go into his chiller room. When they have properly cooled off he will remove the water bottles, re-lay them out 20 to a  tray and get them to the game dealer the following morning.

It's quite a faff, if the shooters are doing well he'll have to call them off after 100 birds or so, so he has time to chill the birds before bed time - it's either this or the unthinkable in his case, He can't refuse farmer's requests to shoot birds because other people will jump in and oblige and he'll risk losing hard won permissions.

[pigeon controller]

When I started shooting pigeons with some commitment thirty plus years ago the situation was Russian cartridges were £70 a thousand and shot birds were sold to butchers for Ten Bob ( 50p) in the Birmingham Bull Ring Market to satisfy the demand for post war food flavours .
Following the demise of the home market birds were sold to be canned or processed in Europe. 
Over the years the price for shot birds has dropped to one shilling (5p) and the destinations of these dealers covers the four corners of the UK.

I deem myself to be very lucky that currently I’m receiving my old Ten Bob (50p) for steel shot birds, I am a game registered food handler but my cartridges are £320 a thousand we are competing with a large number of shooters.

I’m no expert ( A drip under pressure) but when you consider the food protein of a shot pigeon at 50p it is a bargain, but you can’t afford to miss many!!!!!

When will the treehuggers realise that we have a limited amount of land to grow our food on this island and if they all want to be vegans and veggies the lowly pigeon will be one of there main contenders for the same crops so why not take advantage of the resource and allow our supposedly starving/food bank users some real meat??

[Centrepin]

I'm just 5 years retired and my biggest cost is fuel.

Cartridges I bulk buy 32 x 6 Clear pigeon or 32 x 5 Sipe are my first choice and although I only have a slab of each left I dare say they'll see me the year out now the harvest is in. I'm probably back to less than a box 3 times a week.

I have no problems with using 21 x 7.5 on pigeon same as I use on clays as they bring them down. If I'm out and out for crow then it's 32gram as i find anything less can leave pricked birds.

With the .410 its 17 x 6 or 19 x 7.5 and I've killed crow outright with these. Unfortunately they cost more than 12 bore ammo.

Locally there's a pub/restaurant that'll buy pigeon @ .50p but only in batches of minimum of 50 fresh. Since I've never had 50 I've never sold any but have given plenty away🤔 mine are now put in the farms incinerator or used as decoys next day.

Recently on a trip to Norfolk I was in the Hockwold *** Wilton area and saw literally 1000s of pigeon, crow and gulls covering the local pig farms. Correct me if I'm wrong but Anglia sporting charges over £300 per day for a chance to shoot these(not gulls obviously) or £200 if you supply your own nets and decoys. 

No idea how anyone can afford those prices and cartridges as well. I was told they then sell on the pigeon?

If I had to pay to shoot on a perm then I think I'd have to consider giving it up. I'm already considering making clays a treat. 

[bigroomboy]

I plugged "cheap" £40 in 1975 into an inflation calculator and got £251 as of 2021. So we are not really that far off those levels. Remember the 70s was also tough financially with fuel and other costs. The economy is cyclic and when we go into a tougher period if feels much worse. What is clear is that we are getting less for the **** birds. On the other hand meat is far more expensive and every bird you eat is a greater saving and if you start telling people what good value shot birds are and how tasty it is the price will go up. At then end of the day we choose what we want to do and make space for it. Some years it's easier than others but overall we are far better off than in the 70s.

[marsh man]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

I am in Somerset. I shoot mostly crows rather than pigeons which I mostly receive nothing for, some will not shoot them. I cart's at £380 a thou. I travel on average around 50 miles a day and shot two or three times a week. Also fox and deer in the evenings. On average I would guess I spend around £350 - £400 a month on running costs. 

A trip out last week cost £50 for 20 pigeons and a fox. Its a lot better than £50 for no return. It's a hobby if I could not afford it I would do less. 

Yes there are a lot of people about who have still got money in there pockets but there are also a lot who are feeling the pinch through no fault of there own , I would imagine that a lot of o a ps will soon be spending more on the cost of living than what they are getting in with the state pension and any small private pension , with inflation running at a record high of over ten percent I very much doubt they could afford £400 a month on vermin control for any length of time .

What we have got loads of is free time , and time to a lot of people is a dear commodity , like I said in a earlier post , to take a day off from work to purely carry a days pest control when according to the GL you cannot do it just for sport is day not that many people will soon be able to afford , we can spend a lot of time as we have got more disposable time than money , over the years the farmers have had free pest control and we have been getting free sport , so it was a win win situation , now it isn't quite the same , we are on paper protecting a valuable crop all out of own pocket for what ? , I don't mind admitting that I am not keen on shooting Rooks ect , ( a ), I don't find them that sporting and ( b ) I hate shooting something and then dumping it , if I shot a bag of 100 or just over I would expect to fire in the region of 150 cartridges , these are now around £8 a box so you can say roughly £50 plus the fuel , again for what am I getting out of it ?,  so would it do the land owners any harm to either pay or help to pay towards the cost of cartridges and fuel ? ,I am more than happy to donate my time for free and touch wood I can still hold my gun fairly straight  , 

 

[Centrepin]

1 hour ago, marsh man said:

Yes there are a lot of people about who have still got money in there pockets but there are also a lot who are feeling the pinch through no fault of there own , I would imagine that a lot of o a ps will soon be spending more on the cost of living than what they are getting in with the state pension and any small private pension , with inflation running at a record high of over ten percent I very much doubt they could afford £400 a month on vermin control for any length of time .

What we have got loads of is free time , and time to a lot of people is a dear commodity , like I said in a earlier post , to take a day off from work to purely carry a days pest control when according to the GL you cannot do it just for sport is day not that many people will soon be able to afford , we can spend a lot of time as we have got more disposable time than money , over the years the farmers have had free pest control and we have been getting free sport , so it was a win win situation , now it isn't quite the same , we are on paper protecting a valuable crop all out of own pocket for what ? , I don't mind admitting that I am not keen on shooting Rooks ect , ( a ), I don't find them that sporting and ( b ) I hate shooting something and then dumping it , if I shot a bag of 100 or just over I would expect to fire in the region of 150 cartridges , these are now around £8 a box so you can say roughly £50 plus the fuel , again for what am I getting out of it ?,  so would it do the land owners any harm to either pay or help to pay towards the cost of cartridges and fuel ? ,I am more than happy to donate my time for free and touch wood I can still hold my gun fairly straight  , 

 

Unfortunately most farmers charge for the shooting rights to their land and see it as income, declared or not. I just can't ever imagine them offering so much as 1d (about a 1/3 of 1 new pence for you youngsters) towards your expenses.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 hours ago, ditchman said:

look on the bright side.........it might get to the point that the govt quickly realises that thousands of tons/year of foodstuff is being eaten by animals..(fur and feather)....

and a national call out to anyone who can leagally handle a gun to do their bit in helping to feed the nation.....these people will be given free ammunition and a weekly retainer..and a bounty head bonus

normal folk will stand outside there doors at 7 oclock each night and bang their pots and pans to show there love of these valiant lifesavers.....we will get 50% off fuel and take-a-ways and 50% off on butlin holidays and instant access to doctors and dentists....

yep it could happen ...when folk taste hunger they will do anything

Have you banged your head on something solid again?

 

And what do you know of NORMAL folk?

[oowee]

2 hours ago, marsh man said:

Yes there are a lot of people about who have still got money in there pockets but there are also a lot who are feeling the pinch through no fault of there own , I would imagine that a lot of o a ps will soon be spending more on the cost of living than what they are getting in with the state pension and any small private pension , with inflation running at a record high of over ten percent I very much doubt they could afford £400 a month on vermin control for any length of time .

What we have got loads of is free time , and time to a lot of people is a dear commodity , like I said in a earlier post , to take a day off from work to purely carry a days pest control when according to the GL you cannot do it just for sport is day not that many people will soon be able to afford , we can spend a lot of time as we have got more disposable time than money , over the years the farmers have had free pest control and we have been getting free sport , so it was a win win situation , now it isn't quite the same , we are on paper protecting a valuable crop all out of own pocket for what ? , I don't mind admitting that I am not keen on shooting Rooks ect , ( a ), I don't find them that sporting and ( b ) I hate shooting something and then dumping it , if I shot a bag of 100 or just over I would expect to fire in the region of 150 cartridges , these are now around £8 a box so you can say roughly £50 plus the fuel , again for what am I getting out of it ?,  so would it do the land owners any harm to either pay or help to pay towards the cost of cartridges and fuel ? ,I am more than happy to donate my time for free and touch wood I can still hold my gun fairly straight  , 

 

You make a very strong point. I have tempered my activity over the last two years and whittled the land down to what suits me best. There is also a flexible limit to the work I will do and look for stalking as a bit of pay back. I used to send the carcasses to Germany but that's no longer an option post brexit, a significant loss of income.

Whilst cost is I am sure an increasing concern there seems no shortage of those apparently prepared to step in. That said, It's my experience that many people like the idea of shooting rather than the reality. Many are reluctant to put in the leg work. Also having the free time, a mate to go with them and something to shoot when they get there is a combination that many struggle to manage. 

[marsh man]

26 minutes ago, oowee said:

You make a very strong point. I have tempered my activity over the last two years and whittled the land down to what suits me best. There is also a flexible limit to the work I will do and look for stalking as a bit of pay back. I used to send the carcasses to Germany but that's no longer an option post brexit, a significant loss of income.

Whilst cost is I am sure an increasing concern there seems no shortage of those apparently prepared to step in. That said, It's my experience that many people like the idea of shooting rather than the reality. Many are reluctant to put in the leg work. Also having the free time, a mate to go with them and something to shoot when they get there is a combination that many struggle to manage. 

I fully agree with what you are saying ,  we see a lot of full sets of decoying gear on the other sales and I see a lot at the auctions I go to , a lot of people pack it in for various reasons , one could be it is not as easy as it look and it is a never ending learning curve , I look up to P C as one the top decoyer's on the forum , I don't think he would mind me saying that he knows a hell of a lot about Pigeon decoying but he will never know the lot there is to know , no one will , we still can't make out why they will decoy one day in text book fashion and then on the next day you can set up the exactly same pattern and the Pigeons will give them a wide berth , the difference with P C and someone who is fairly new to the sport will know something is not right and alter his pattern to suit and then if it is not quite right he will go a adjust it till he is happy with it , where the other person will happily sit there hopping it will get better by its self .

Also it takes a lot of time to get the land owners trust and he would be weary in letting strangers on there land with a shotgun , a lot of land I go on have been for more years than I care to remember , where I spend 99% of my time now started in 1965 when me and my brother first went beating , we then got our first day ever shooting Pheasants , or should I say shooting at Pheasants on the beaters day , we then got four Saturdays roost shooting in February , then when we first got into Pigeon decoying this was the place to get in , we must had done things right as we went wherever we asked to go , time moved on and 45 years ago a vacancy came up for a jobbing bricklayer , I applied for this job and after a few interviews I got it , I was there till I retired 15 years ago and work is just a memory , all I do now is attend all the shoots and shoot Pigeons for the rest of the year , they have been very good to me over the years and there would be a good possibility that if I could no longer afford the cartridges ect they would help me out rather than think about letting someone else to do the crop protection .