Changes To The General Licence

[grrclark]

2 minutes ago, WelshAndy said:

Sorry if this sounds stupid...

 

does this effect Wales?

Who administers the general licence in Wales?

[Scully]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Copied from SD

Interesting and detailed response from Richard Benyon MP:
 

• This issue came about as the result of a legal challenge and as such there is no flexibility other than to suspend the GL. It (the GL) stems from the days of MAFF when there was apparently a requirement to do a regular assessment of the need for a GL. Defra handed the duty over to NE six years ago and it appears that some crucial paperwork did not find its way there, and it has created a loop hole that has been exploited by anti-shooting campaigners.
• NE intend to continue with the GL as soon as possible but crucially most species WILL be able to be legally controlled within a few days.
• On Thursday there will be a simple form to fill in available on the NE website from the moment the GL falls, to apply for and quickly receive legal authority to control a number of the 16 species covered by the GL. NE will prioritise pigeons (damage to crops) and next will be corvids. There will be three categories under which people can apply. These will be a) damage to livestock (including game), b) public health and safety and, c) conservation.
• This is a temporary fix. A new GL will be issued in time but will require the usual processes including consultation.

I'm assuming 'damage to crops' is covered by C? 

[WelshAndy]

NRW?

[marsh man]

First of all a big THANKS to all the members and the organisations who are doing there best to bringing this disaster to a early conclusion .

When all the dust is settled, will we ever have the freedom to shoot Pigeons again like we have in the past , or will the likes of roost shooting and shooting over stubble's now end up in the history books ? 

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, grrclark said:

Who administers the general licence in Wales?

Its a devolved matter. So i think separate from the revocation in England for the moment. I think it was mentioned by BASC in their press release.

Edited April 24, 2019 by oowee

[yickdaz]

9 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Welcome to the real world!

Lived in the real world  43 years so not knew to it 

[udderlyoffroad]

21 minutes ago, steve_b_wales said:

Scottish Government has announced that it is fully aware of the situation but it is not revoking its General Licences, which have exactly the same legal basis as those which NE now regards as being unlawful.

It's not often one looks to the Scottish Government for the sensible and reasoned approach on countryside matters.

10 minutes ago, AYA117 said:

This issue came about as the result of a legal challenge and as such there is no flexibility other than to suspend the GL

The scottish Gov lawyers do not agree.  I personally do not see why an undertaking to consult on the replacement system couldn't have been issued by NE, rather than this cluster, but I am not a lawyer

22 minutes ago, Miserableolgit said:

This is a sensible and considered view, it does no good at all to hurl abuse and negative at those we view as our opponents. Reasoned debate backed by fact will win through in the end.

Too true MoG (didn't know you were on this forum).  However, can I suggest some special rules in his case?  As he has an ego the size of a planet, do not engage with him.  In public discourse (including posts here), refer only to his organisation, never him.  The cult of personality is of no interest to us.

[andrewluke]

https://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/3072447/its-official-tony-juniper-appointed-natural-england-chair

[Keith RW]

22 hours ago, quentyn said:

well i have registered as a "householder" but 

 

Please note that you will now receive a request to supply documentary evidence to verify your details. The request will be sent to the postal address you have submitted within the next 5 working days.

You will not be able to use the online application system and no licences will be issued until this documentary evidence has been supplied.

not quite sure what "documentary evidence " they may need 

if all pigeon shooters take five minutes to apply and register the same as above its going to costs NE a fair few bob in stamps over the next week or so....regardless of whether applicants  see fit to respond with any documentary evidence to further the application....

[grrclark]

6 minutes ago, WelshAndy said:

NRW?

Yep, check their website.

Not having a go at you in particular Andy, but how can you know you are legitimately shooting under the terms of the GL if you don't know for sure who administers it then how can you know the terms of it?  This is part of the 'evidence' that Packham and Avery are keen to exploit, people are killing birds without any demonstrable knowledge of the law that permits them to do so.  We need to be better than that to be able to defend ourselves.

To answer your first question as yet it is only Natural England that have revoked the GL, hence only England is impacted.

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

Its a devolved matter. So i think separate from the revocation in England for the moment. I think it was mentioned by BASC in their press release.

Yep, it is devolved and seperate from NE, albeit there are potential parallels should legal challenge be pursued against the devolved bodies.

[Miserableolgit]

While I have read and followed all the posts I can't remember if this item from Mark Avery about how Wild Justices legal Case Progressed has been posted previously. Makes for interesting reading.

[sako751sg]

Think the challenge has came about because NE was not aware that the GL has to be reviewed yearly and failed to do so.

Apparently SNH did their yearly review so they have no need to revoke.

Pretty sure this is just a blip due to negligence and should not be allowed to happen again.Maybe even be a positive in the long run and quieten a few antis,or at least allow the authorities to give them less credence.

[JBS]

The only good I can see coming from this is the potential end of pigeon “guides” who in my opinion do nothing good for pigeon shooting. 

[islandgun]

11 minutes ago, Miserableolgit said:

While I have read and followed all the posts I can't remember if this item from Mark Avery about how Wild Justices legal Case Progressed has been posted previously. Makes for interesting reading.

thanks for posting.....looks like mark avery has enjoyed many pork pies [wild justice for pigs ?]..  good arguments in the comments section

38 minutes ago, udderlyoffroad said:

It's not often one looks to the Scottish Government for the sensible and reasoned approach on countryside matters.

The scottish Gov lawyers do not agree.  I personally do not see why an undertaking to consult on the replacement system couldn't have been issued by NE, rather than this cluster, but I am not a lawyer

Too true MoG (didn't know you were on this forum).  However, can I suggest some special rules in his case?  As he has an ego the size of a planet, do not engage with him.  In public discourse (including posts here), refer only to his organisation, never him.  The cult of personality is of no interest to us.

check out lead shot e.g

[wymberley]

44 minutes ago, Scully said:

I'm assuming 'damage to crops' is covered by C? 

Think you'll find it's A. The 3 choices have been poorly abbreviated. If you go to the 10th post on Page  1, you'll find it's somewhat clearer.

[Stonepark]

From SNH....

24 April 2019

In light of the recent decision by Natural England (NE) to revoke three of their General Licences for controlling certain wild birds, we would like to firstly reassure those who are currently operating under our similar licences that these remain in place in Scotland, allowing those who comply with the conditions to continue to use them.

Our General Licences cover relatively common situations, such as preventing agricultural damage and protecting public health and safety where there’s unlikely to be any conservation impact. They avoid the need for people to apply for individual licences for these specific circumstances.

It’s our role to balance a number of public interests, while making sure Scottish wildlife and nature is protected, and can thrive for future generations.  It’s a responsibility we take very seriously. We continue in our commitment to getting the balance right.

We are aware that this decision by Natural England is linked to a legal challenge; the legal system is slightly different here in Scotland, but we are following this case carefully to see if there are any implications for us.

Taking into account the outcome of the process in England and after consultation with our legal advisors, we will then consider if there may be any changes required to our licences.

As with any review of our licences we would seek to ensure an appropriate period of consultation to gather views on any planned changes, allow sufficient time for any adjustments to take place and for users to be made aware.

 

[Dibble]

"Wild Justice did not ask for the revocation of the 2019 General Licences – only that they would not be issued in the same unlawful form in 2020.  It was NE’s decision to revoke the 2019 General Licences and at such short notice. Wild Justice took such a measured line because we knew that such an action would be an unpopular shock to some interest groups and would cause administrative challenges for NE and we wanted to give NE space fully to consider the legal options.

NE could have made their decision to concede the legal case at any time after 13 February – the fact that it took them nearly two and a half months is a matter for them to explain, not Wild Justice.

NE did not tell Wild Justice what it was going to do in advance and issued its press notice more or less at the time it communicated its decision to us. "

 

So Wild Justice are saying the sudden revocation doesn't perfectly suit them.

[MarcMaxus]

I think we all need to see how this plays out. As I understand it, a new GL will be issued on the 29th. 

As for BASC, I understand the frustration, but a mass exodus will do Jack. They are as shocked as we are. I've spoken with then a few times and they have been nothing but helpful.

Its times like this we should stand United, not divided. It will be a storm in a teacup in the end 

[Scully]

22 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Think you'll find it's A. The 3 choices have been poorly abbreviated. If you go to the 10th post on Page  1, you'll find it's somewhat clearer.

Ta. You're a gent. 😉

[GingerCat]

They (basc et al) could and should be promoting ethically sourced, sustainable and free range game meat obtained effectively as a by product of farming. Not to us, but to the masses. 

I've not seen a single promotion outside of shooting magazines and websites.

They should be engaging with schools and starting up rifle ranges run  by them. Where the school objects then perhaps or in addition to the former they could include conservation projects. 

I've not seen it yet and I've been a member for years.

They could be promoting clay shooting and range shooting as a universal sport catering for all ages and disabilites. Outside of the mags and websites and when the olympics arent on I've yet to see it.

If we don't take the front foot and promote benefits of our lifestyle choices (like the vegans etc ) then you'll only hear criticism from those outside of our echo chamber that's steadily getting smaller and less liked.  

They have the funds and the members to do it easily as packhams 1100 donors raising 36k has recently demonstrated. 

[panoma1]

22 minutes ago, Dibble said:

"Wild Justice did not ask for the revocation of the 2019 General Licences – only that they would not be issued in the same unlawful form in 2020.  It was NE’s decision to revoke the 2019 General Licences and at such short notice. Wild Justice took such a measured line because we knew that such an action would be an unpopular shock to some interest groups and would cause administrative challenges for NE and we wanted to give NE space fully to consider the legal options.

NE could have made their decision to concede the legal case at any time after 13 February – the fact that it took them nearly two and a half months is a matter for them to explain, not Wild Justice.

NE did not tell Wild Justice what it was going to do in advance and issued its press notice more or less at the time it communicated its decision to us. "

 

So Wild Justice are saying the sudden revocation doesn't perfectly suit them.

No! The sudden revocation is potentially a massive own goal for wild Justice..........that is why the are trying to distance themselves from responsibility for NE's sudden revocation!

[lancer425]

10 minutes ago, MarcMaxus said:

I think we all need to see how this plays out. As I understand it, a new GL will be issued on the 29th. 

As for BASC, I understand the frustration, but a mass exodus will do Jack. They are as shocked as we are. I've spoken with then a few times and they have been nothing but helpful.

Its times like this we should stand United, not divided. It will be a storm in a teacup in the end 

Exactly Patience is a virtue we need to calm down wait and see, the NE Decision was sudden. We need to get behind BASC rather than let this develop into a rout at the first glimpse of enemy action. I imagine packham and Co will be reading this thread with  amusement. The shooting world in this country is so fragmented  its not funny. 

[MarcMaxus]

14 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Exactly Patience is a virtue we need to calm down wait and see, the NE Decision was sudden. We need to get behind BASC rather than let this develop into a rout at the first glimpse of enemy action. I imagine packham and Co will be reading this thread with  amusement. The shooting world in this country is so fragmented  its not funny. 

I have a duty to protect crops tomorrow. I'm not going to burden the farmer with this debacle. He has crops, they need protecting. I'll be there tomorrow at 5am and I'll do a service. I have a case of airsoft flashbang grenades that will do the job for now. 

I trust this will blow over in time, I'm not letting my farmers down, especially this time of year. I'll dress as a bloody scarecrow and run around the bloody feild naked if I have to. I'm privileged to have permission, regardless, I have a duty of care to provide protection of crop, in line with the law. Until this all blows over

[oowee]

6 minutes ago, MarcMaxus said:

I have a duty to protect crops tomorrow. I'm not going to burden the farmer with this debacle. He has crops, they need protecting. I'll be there tomorrow at 5am and I'll do a service. I have a case of airsoft flashbang grenades that will do the job for now. 

I trust this will blow over in time, I'm not letting my farmers down, especially this time of year. I'll dress as a bloody scarecrow and run around the bloody feild naked if I have to. I'm privileged to have permission, regardless, I have a duty of care to provide protection of crop, in line with the law. Until this all blows over

No problem tomorrow before 2359.

[Cranfield]

27 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Exactly Patience is a virtue we need to calm down wait and see, the NE Decision was sudden. We need to get behind BASC rather than let this develop into a rout at the first glimpse of enemy action. I imagine packham and Co will be reading this thread with  amusement. The shooting world in this country is so fragmented  its not funny. 

Your persistent support for the BASC does you some sort of credit, but there are many of us who have seen this sort of situation developing for some time, there has never been anything but smug complacency from the BASC.
We should be getting almost hourly bulletins from them as to what they are doing, their silence speaks loudly.
I also would suggest that Packham & Co do not read this Forum.